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51
PCB / Re: A comparison of CV-1000 (SH3) PCBs with their respective ports
« Last post by EOJ on September 28, 2019, 08:05:09 PM »
Thanks for your detailed reply. I have not conducted any input lag measurements myself. Here are a few questions and comments for you.

1) Ports like Deathsmiles have 3 frames of lag and that is as good as it gets by default on the X360, according to your results. However, Futari X360 in the options is set to the standard PCB input lag by default (2 frames), so shouldn't the default Futari lag on the X360 port be 3 frames as well, and changing the setting to 1 will reduce it to 2 frames (and setting it to 0 will reduce it to 1)? Or are you claiming the Futari port has 4 frames by default?

2) As stated above, when I changed from 2 to 1 frames in the input lag settings in the Futari port, it felt more responsive to me on my RGB monitor than my PCB, which I played back to back. I still play them back to back through my OSSC and low-lag LCD monitor (5ms total input lag), and the Futari port still feels more responsive than the PCB on this newer set up. (I admit I cannot discount the possibility this could be some placebo effect.)

3) I feel no difference at all between the ports like Deathsmiles, DDP DFK and Espgaluda 2 and their respective PCBs when I play them on the same monitor. However, I do feel a difference between those ports and the SDOJ, MMP, AK and PS ports with extra lag. So, based on your results I would have to conclude I cannot feel a difference between 2 and 3 frames of lag, but I can feel a difference between 3 and 4 (and possibly 1 and 2, in regard to the Futari port/PCB)? That seems a bit strange to me, but sometimes strange things are true.
52
PCB / Re: A comparison of CV-1000 (SH3) PCBs with their respective ports
« Last post by MarkMSX on September 28, 2019, 05:10:58 PM »
Hey there,

I'm Mark of the Electric Underground. It sounds like you are skeptical of my input lag results. I've found that, when people test input lag and get different results, the discussion that follows is always just a delightful experience.

So what I think the best way to go about things is to thoroughly explain my methods, my approach, show my results, and let you compare it to your method of measuring lag.

Reading through your post, I don't see an explanation of how you came to your input lag results, so it'll probably be useful when we compare our findings to each other.

To clarify, I do use native analog video from the Xbox 360. I use the stock CRT VGA cable. I also own the 15 kHz RGB cable you describe, and have found that it is no more responsive than analog VGA. In fact, I would argue that the native 31kHz cable for the Xbox 360 is more responsive than the RGB cable, due to the higher horizontal refresh rate (though I don't think it matters). I am NOT using HDMI.

The arcade stick that I use to test with is the Hori Real Arcade Pro VX-SA, which has been shown by my own tests, as well as on Teyah.net, to be the most responsive input method on the Xbox 360.

http://www.teyah.net/sticklag/results.html

This is the most responsive controller for the Xbox 360 that I have come across or heard of.

On the input lag index, I have linked this page which explains my testing methods in-depth:

http://electricunderground.io/input-lag-test-setup/

I have also added this page, which shows examples of frame by frame pictures of my testing results. I have included pictures of Futari with vsync to 0 and to 1, as well as results from SDOJ, Mushi, and DFK.

http://electricunderground.io/shmup-input-lag-results-examples/

I may not be part of the OG shmup player club, but I do take input lag testing seriously and would welcome a comparison with your results and where you identify my extra frame of lag is coming from exactly. Also, I don't think it is possible for a game on the Xbox 360 to have zero frames of lag, as the lag from the controller and the usb ports alone will at least add a frame, in addition to the game processing the input as well. Futari's ability to turn off vysnc is the coolest setting I have ever seen in a shmup port and it is the reason why the Futari port is able to achieve PCB levels of input lag, but the other Cave 360 ports are 3 frames or higher.

I do agree that the main issue with the SDOJ port is how funky its slowdown acts, in relation to the input lag, but it still does have an extra frame of baseline lag in comparison to DFK.

53
CAVE Auctions / Re: Auctions of Interest and PCB Shop Price Lists
« Last post by EOJ on September 28, 2019, 05:12:59 AM »
CAVE/AMI Ver 2 box in poor condition (lots of tape, label marks, writing on it, etc) sold for 16,500 yen, at auction, to a proxy bidder.

https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/e380229449

There were four bidders on this, all four were proxies.
54
High Scores - Competition Style / Re: World Record Scores (Updated 22-September-2019)
« Last post by EOJ on September 28, 2019, 04:53:52 AM »
That is a crazy score right there. I wonder if it's possible to get to 1.6...BTW I haven't seen DGN post a score since his Pink Sweets score attack record (which, after many years, still stands). Cool that he's still active.

RIP: 1,552,268,355 - KTL-NAL – Maniac – Palm
55
PCB / Re: A comparison of CV-1000 (SH3) PCBs with their respective ports
« Last post by EOJ on September 28, 2019, 04:43:34 AM »
The PCB has two frames, like all SH3 PCBs. I was going by this:

http://cave-stg.com/forum/index.php?topic=1663.msg31325#msg31325

I wrote "at least one additional frame of lag", because I have seen varying results, and I have yet to see a good test done on a CRT via RGB output on the X360. Seems to be the same amount of lag on SDOJ, MMP, Pink Sweets, DSII and AK (they all run on the same porting engine).

In that link you posted with the input lag tests, it looks like the guy's setup is adding at least one frame of lag above the actual lag. Case in point: I have played the Futari port on an RGB monitor with the lag set to 1 (not even 0, as in the results on that link) and it was definitely more responsive (=less lag) than the PCB which is 2 (and which I played on the same monitor), but that guy says setting it to 0 equates to 2 frames in the port. I don't buy it.
56
High Scores - Competition Style / Re: World Record Scores (Updated 22-September-2019)
« Last post by Plasmo on September 28, 2019, 04:23:35 AM »
The last JHA update also had a new WR for Mushi Futari BL

1,595,276,130 - [email protected]ぽんたいとHey半々 - Maniac - Palm

Furthermore, I'm pretty hype about the new categories opened by JHA, which also affect the CAVE scores significantly, e.g.

  • DDP DOJ (WL and BL): Distinction between Shot, Laser and Expert types (6 categories total)
  • Dangun Feveron: Distinction between A, B, C & Cat for both modes Normal and Time Attack (8 categories total)
  • Progear no Arashi: Distinction between Chain, Nail & Rivet types (6 categories total)
57
PCB / Re: A comparison of CV-1000 (SH3) PCBs with their respective ports
« Last post by Plasmo on September 28, 2019, 04:17:34 AM »
Added DDP SDOJ! Another poorly done port.

When you speak of "one additional frame of input lag" for SDOJ, does that mean that the PCB has 3-4 frames of inout lag already? I'm referring to Mark's finding of 4-5 frames of input lag on the SDOJ port (http://electricunderground.io/shmup-input-lag-database/).

Highly interesting topic overall, thanks for doing this!
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PCB / Re: A comparison of CV-1000 (SH3) PCBs with their respective ports
« Last post by EOJ on September 28, 2019, 12:55:37 AM »
Added DDP SDOJ! Another poorly done port.
59
PCB / Re: A comparison of CV-1000 (SH3) PCBs with their respective ports
« Last post by EOJ on September 28, 2019, 12:42:13 AM »
Added Akai Katana. As you can see, this is a very poorly done port, and the worst there is (on X360) in regard to slowdown emulation. Deathsmiles II is a not-too-distant second though!
60
CAVE Auctions / Re: Auctions of Interest and PCB Shop Price Lists
« Last post by EOJ on September 27, 2019, 09:18:36 PM »
Mushi Futari PCB starting at 50 yen:

https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/r351132384

The seller lists it as "junk" because he has "no way of testing if it works". Red flag there, guys -- 99% chance it really doesn't work, or has some serious issues. He also guesses it is Ver 1.5, but isn't sure.

Also keep in mind Suruga-ya would buy this from him for about 70,000 yen if it was working (and all he has to do is mail it to them). But if it doesn't work, they won't take it.
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