Author Topic: Mushihimesama or Mushihimesama Cave Matsuri Ver 1.5?  (Read 1358 times)

Offline EOJ

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Mushihimesama or Mushihimesama Cave Matsuri Ver 1.5?
« on: May 29, 2012, 11:39:55 PM »
Overall I'm a bit disappointed with Mushihimesama Cave Matsuri Ver 1.5, especially after reading people say it was one of Cave's best yet.

Things I don't like:
-Original mode is really dumbed down. Feels like a Novice mode.
-Original MAX scoring is annoying - it's like Futari BL Original (which I didn't love either). Memorize when every enemy in a stage will appear and then stay at the top of the screen and hold the C button as much as possible. Then the bullets get super fast and it's hard to stay alive.
-Maniac mode is just like Mushi Maniac but with more button tapping, more lenient chaining (you have much more time in between enemy hits before your chain starts falling) and higher chains. Stage 3 is too cluttered, the extra enemies don't make it better. Stage 4 is not as fun as in Mushi - the first half of the stage is just annoying now. Stage 5 is comparatively easy. Overall the difficulty balance is really off.
-Maniac/Ultra MAX modes in general could have been a lot better. I don't like the "you get one bomb per life and it's an autobomb" system. They feel like console arrange modes to me.
-Music isn't as good as the original game.

Things I like:
-Nice graphic touches here and there. The shot types look a bit snazzier. The yellow halo on the fast bullets in Original MAX is really nice.
-Nice change of color palette on the second stage, making it bluish. Looks like a picture in the early promos, maybe this was the original design?
-The bullet patterns on the stage 5 boss are nice.
-M-Power isn't useless anymore - it's now the best type for clearing the game.
-Bombs don't destroy your chain like in Mushi.
-Deaths don't kill your score in Original MAX (they do in the other MAX modes, though).

Overall Ver 1.5 is good fun of course, and I will keep playing it (for awhile) but the original Mushi is the better game IMO. It has a better difficulty curve, better scoring systems, better music, better enemy patterns. So, I vote Mushihimesama > Mushihimesama Cave Matsuri Ver 1.5. How about the rest of you?
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Offline cstarflare

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Re: Mushihimesama or Mushihimesama Cave Matsuri Ver 1.5?
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2012, 12:08:36 AM »
Haven't spent much time with it, but I appreciate the extra difficulty in Maniac MAX compared to 1.0's Maniac. The extra power and slowdown in Ultra MAX makes it feel more accessible despite the additional enemies (at least in a the first few stages). Original MAX's pointblanking is frustrating it allows for more flexible and interesting play than 1.0's Original.

I am disappointed that the game system is still biased towards W-Shot. I find some of the extra enemy waves obnoxious, but it might be because they mess up the routes I've put together in 1.0.

I was never a fan of playing Mushi for score and it seems like 1.5 won't change that. It's fun to play around with the tweaked systems and go for some new clears, but I doubt it will stay in my system for long. I might like it better than 1.0 in the long run; the leniency in chaining and the extra potential for raising your counter without tapping are big pluses for me. And who doesn't like bigger numbers?

Offline EOJ

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Re: Mushihimesama or Mushihimesama Cave Matsuri Ver 1.5?
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2012, 12:18:36 AM »
the leniency in chaining and the extra potential for raising your counter without tapping.

The first point, I agree, is one of the nice, inviting aspects of the game. But I disagree with the second point. This game just upped the chains (and scoring) by a factor of 10, give or take. So if you have 100,000 on your counter, it's equivalent to about 10,000 in 1.0. You still need to tap like crazy (or use rapid fire buttons all over the place) to get the counter up to 'good scoring level'.
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Offline Muchi Muchi Spork

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Re: Mushihimesama or Mushihimesama Cave Matsuri Ver 1.5?
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2012, 12:29:32 AM »
I don't like tapping. Any complaints about tapping I agree with. I like 1.5 way more but I don't play for score. I never got into the scoring on the original or in 1.5 (haven't yet anyway, but will give it a shot when I get off SDOJ) beyond trying to get the extra men to beat the game and doing point blanking is fun in 1.5. I like the change in Ultra Max where you start with full shot power, makes it easier to jump into.

There are a very few Cave games where I get into the scoring (Futari Maniac, Akai Katanas, Ketsui) most others from Cave I usually just try to get high enough to get the extra men to help me beat the game, if I ever can. The 1.5 music I like about the same but I am happy to have a different version on it. I had heard the original version plenty already.

The original game was a challenge for me...at first. Now when I play it it's way too easy to clear (aside from Ultra which is the opposite). After playing the max modes the original game is almost boring. Maybe if I didn't play it for 1-2 years and went back... I agree about original mode being a joke in 1.5, a novice mode, but that is almost how original mode on the original release feels to me now too. No challenge anymore.

1.5 Original Max and Maniac Max are an absolute blast to me to try and 1CC and feel like magic similar to Ketsui/Futari/Katana Limited. I had gone back to playing the hell out of it actually recently and only stopped because SDOJ arrived.

I'm not sure about a difficulty curve problem with 1.5. You've got modes that go from too easy to too hard. It depends kind of on which revision of the original they used for the port. But I assume they used the latest one (2 dots) which is the easiest. But anyway if I was playing mostly for record high scores I would look at them from a different lens/angle. I don't think I'll ever get world records for any Cave game. Every time I start thinking I'm doing good with my scoring I see a video on YouTube or Cave DVD and it feels like "what's the point".

Offline EOJ

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Re: Mushihimesama or Mushihimesama Cave Matsuri Ver 1.5?
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2012, 12:35:22 AM »

I'm not sure about a difficulty curve problem with 1.5. You've got modes that go from too easy to too hard. It depends kind of on which revision of the original they used for the port. But I assume they used the latest one (2 dots) which is the easiest.

There are no dots on the copyright screen in the port (It says "Cave Matsuri Ver" on the bottom, iirc), but maybe they just didn't bother putting them in there. What changes were in the revision? Did they fix the counterstop like in the port?

My problem with the difficulty curve was within a single mode, not across modes. I don't like how the difficulty spikes from Stage 3 through the beginning of Stage 4, then cools off for the rest of the game.
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Offline Muchi Muchi Spork

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Re: Mushihimesama or Mushihimesama Cave Matsuri Ver 1.5?
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2012, 12:50:26 AM »
No I mean the original 2004 game, the 2 dot version of it is easier than the no and 1 dot. I have owned all 3 boards. They kept tweaking and refining it and in doing so you naturally dodge patterns easier and easier. If they used the 2 dot as the basis for the port's original game modes is what I was saying...

Re: 1.5 pcb. I haven't heard of any fix for the counterstop but they did fix the hiscore saving bug but did not update the date line when they fixed it so you have to play it to see. I think they might have started to get embarrassed of the dots.

Offline EOJ

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Re: Mushihimesama or Mushihimesama Cave Matsuri Ver 1.5?
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2012, 12:57:47 AM »
No I mean the original 2004 game, the 2 dot version of it is easier than the no and 1 dot. I have owned all 3 boards. They kept tweaking and refining it and in doing so you naturally dodge patterns easier and easier.


Sorry, I don't believe this. If you have some video evidence to show me otherwise, please do. Arcadia doesn't distinguish scores for any of the revisions. Also, I've owned all 3 too and played the heck out of them. They all played the same for me in regard to difficulty.
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Offline Muchi Muchi Spork

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Re: Mushihimesama or Mushihimesama Cave Matsuri Ver 1.5?
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2012, 01:04:28 AM »
Maybe some day.

Offline dan76

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Re: Mushihimesama or Mushihimesama Cave Matsuri Ver 1.5?
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2012, 07:30:46 AM »
Having played the original version a lot over the years it's tempting to fall for 1.5 just because it's new. I think the amount of differences between the two is just about right, and for me, even though there is an auto-bomb it still feels like an arcade game and not just another arrange mode.

The thing I love about Mushi is the patterns and dodging, I think it's one of the best paced games they've made. I've never really got into the scoring, and I'm only now trying out various tapping speeds, which actually seems to flow really well. Overall there aren't many games I play for score (Deathsmiles / Akai Katana Arcade) - it's all about the thrill of the dodge - so from my point of view, the patterns are still there, if not better. 1.5 is faster, but if you want to slow things down just hold laser for tons of slowdown (which I really like).

Still, early days but I'll plump for 1.5 because (I'm shallow?) of the speed and the fact that Ultra (Max) is now something I can actually play and enjoy.
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Offline SpiralSage

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Re: Mushihimesama or Mushihimesama Cave Matsuri Ver 1.5?
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2012, 08:52:13 AM »
I'm really fond of 1.5, but call me crazy, the version that came with Mushi HD feels different than the arcade 1.5; I distinctly remember the arcade version letting you have 3 bombs to start but if you got hit you auto-bombed and lost them all. Only having 1 bomb is kind of throwing me off. am I just not remembering 1.5 right or did they actually change it?

Offline MikeNeko

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Re: Mushihimesama or Mushihimesama Cave Matsuri Ver 1.5?
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2012, 10:15:28 AM »
I voted for mushi the first, because, hey that s the starting point of cv1000B !
i have very fond memories of the game and that cannot be wiped away with a few shots of an alternative version :)

As for the differences between minor versions, i ll check the code (i cannot even remember what versions i have access to, none and one dot ? i ll check at home) and go back to you if i find something interesting in what was fixed/tuned.

Offline Strider77

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Re: Mushihimesama or Mushihimesama Cave Matsuri Ver 1.5?
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2012, 02:56:07 PM »
Quote
Sorry, I don't believe this. If you have some video evidence to show me otherwise, please do. Arcadia doesn't distinguish scores for any of the revisions. Also, I've owned all 3 too and played the heck out of them. They all played the same for me in regard to difficulty.

BUSTED!

Offline Muchi Muchi Spork

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Re: Mushihimesama or Mushihimesama Cave Matsuri Ver 1.5?
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2012, 05:53:34 PM »
Quote
Sorry, I don't believe this. If you have some video evidence to show me otherwise, please do. Arcadia doesn't distinguish scores for any of the revisions. Also, I've owned all 3 too and played the heck out of them. They all played the same for me in regard to difficulty.

BUSTED!

According to examdiff there are 1,117 program rom differences going from no dots to 1. I guess you thought they were all bug fixes. I'm not even going to mention changes in the 2 dots as nobody will believe me. Maybe if MikeNeko has time to analyze 1,100 differences he can tell you about the 1 dot, then maybe move on to Futari revisions.

Offline EOJ

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Re: Mushihimesama or Mushihimesama Cave Matsuri Ver 1.5?
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2012, 04:53:00 AM »
I distinctly remember the arcade version letting you have 3 bombs to start but if you got hit you auto-bombed and lost them all. Only having 1 bomb is kind of throwing me off. am I just not remembering 1.5 right or did they actually change it?

It was the same in the arcade version (only 1 bomb per life with the MAX modes).
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Offline iconoclast

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Re: Mushihimesama or Mushihimesama Cave Matsuri Ver 1.5?
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2012, 02:50:30 PM »
I've only spent time with Original mode across both versions, but I agree with what you said about it. I kinda hate Futari BL Original's scoring system, so I don't have much interest in playing 1.5 beyond the 1cc. The original game is more fun.

Offline TimingTripod40

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Re: Mushihimesama or Mushihimesama Cave Matsuri Ver 1.5?
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2012, 03:24:17 PM »
How can anyone prefer 1.0 Original to 1.5 Original MAX? I get Futari BL Original isn't everyone's favorite shmup but Original MAX fixes just about all the common complaints by being more lenient with deaths/bombs, improving the counter system, and eliminating the shot changing without sacrificing any of the intensity.

Offline dan76

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Re: Mushihimesama or Mushihimesama Cave Matsuri Ver 1.5?
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2012, 04:01:42 PM »
I can understand why people don't like 1.5 original Max because in order to score well you basically have to hug the top of the screen. Still lots of fun playing for survival though.
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Offline AweOfShe

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Re: Mushihimesama or Mushihimesama Cave Matsuri Ver 1.5?
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2012, 03:22:39 AM »
After spending some time with both of them over the week, I think I'm more into Mushihimesma.

Though, I still really dig 1.5 Max runs. I'm really glad I didn't miss out on the DLC card this time around.
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