Author Topic: Playing SH3 games on an LCD monitor: Framemeister vs OSSC  (Read 1062 times)

Offline EOJ

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Playing SH3 games on an LCD monitor: Framemeister vs OSSC
« on: April 14, 2018, 05:54:59 PM »
I have a Dell U2414H LCD monitor. It has very low input lag (4ms), a great quality IPS panel, and a rotatable stand built-in. Pretty much perfect for all my Xbox 360 games. I plan to buy a Sigma AV7000 supergun to run my SH3 PCBs and want either a Framemeister mini or OSSC to make the 240p image from the supergun look good on the 1080p screen. I've read a bit about both upscalers. The Framemeister seems to have about 20-24ms of input lag, so about 1.5 frames. That might not be too bad considering how little lag my monitor has. And it has many more options, settings and I/O options than the OSSC, including S-Video input (should I ever need that). However, the OSSC looks to be lag-free, though it doesn't output at 1080p (so, would my monitor add MORE lag in the upscaling process??). I'm also not sure of compatibility with 720p, I've read some monitors won't accept the signal the OSSC outputs.

Anyone try both of these in a similar setup as mine, specifically with SH3 games? Which one do you prefer?
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Offline xygax

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Re: Playing SH3 games on an LCD monitor: Framemeister vs OSSC
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2018, 09:26:29 AM »
Hard not to recommend the OSSC.

The OSSC does 1080p when in x5 multiple mode, actually you can select from 1080p, 1600x1200, and 1920x1200. In 1080p mode depending on the monitor either the clean integer will be kept and therefore a number of lines left out on the top and bottom (or sides if you're in tate), or it'll be upscaled/interpolated by the monitor like with the other multiple modes, showing the full picture though not 1:1 sharp.
(this x5 1080p 1:1 mode is more interesting for systems that output 224p like CPS2 or that typically have large overscan borders like the Megadrive)

But in your case it's not very important since it's very likely that x3 720p mode will look the most pleasant anyway.
Very few monitors won't accept this mode, it's with TVs that it's more random, or when you try hardwares with really odd/off resolutions and refreshes (which is not the case here with Cave SH3/CV1000)

x4 960p will likely also work (might look weird tho)
x2 480p of course will work, it's better than the Mini's own linedouble mode and even better than the pre-Mini XRGB's, or any other linedoubler I can think of.

With the OSSC you indeed get no lag, but also - available in beta for now but soon official - 'hybrid scanlines' which is a better and adjustable implementation of scanlines imitation, more respectful of the brightness of the picture's bright/dark areas and objects, it looks more natural and is superior to the usual simple jailbars-like effect.
The 1080p fully processed and laggy output of the Mini imho is now obsolete, the OSSC's 720p output is splendid, lagless, with hybrid scanlines, the other multiple modes + several other features that give the OSSC the edge and significantly better value.
The only reasons to still prefer the Mini are 480i games (PS2 mainly) for which it is better, and owning a display known to firmly reject modes over x2 (rather rare).

If you'd like to hear about how well the U2414H works with the OSSC in general, IIRC Fudoh on shmups got both, you won't get better advice.
I don't think he owns Cave pcbs but that shouldn't make any difference.

If you'd still like to read feedback from someone who's got a Raijin, at least one SH3/cv1000 pcb, and an OSSC, (that would be me) you'll have to wait some days for it because part of the hardware is currently in storage and I have my hands full with lots of stuff atm. ^^
My monitor's not the same though also Full-HD.

Offline EOJ

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Re: Playing SH3 games on an LCD monitor: Framemeister vs OSSC
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2018, 04:30:18 PM »
Many thanks for all that info!! Sounds like the OSSC is the way to go.
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Offline EOJ

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Re: Playing SH3 games on an LCD monitor: Framemeister vs OSSC
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2018, 12:59:04 AM »
Here are some pics of Mushihimesama Futari Black Label "Another Ver" running through an OSSC 1.6 (Line 3x mode; scanlines at 25%; hybrid value at 100%; multiplication). I've tried a lot of different settings on my OSSC but so far this looks the most like my old PVM monitor (to my eyes). Still not quite as good as the scanlines on the PVM, but it's close enough for me, and on the bright side I don't have the problems with geometry and discoloration in the corners that the PVM had. I also ran the Futari BL X360 port on the same monitor (Arcade mode), and tried out all the scanline options there to compare. None of them looked nearly as natural as the PCB through an OSSC, and the image wasn't as sharp. My full setup is the following:

Sigma AV7000 supergun > JP21 RGB cable > JP21-to-SCART RGB adapter > OSSC SCART RGB input > HDMI output > Dell U2414H monitor HDMI input









« Last Edit: May 21, 2018, 01:21:08 AM by EOJ »
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Offline xygax

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Re: Playing SH3 games on an LCD monitor: Framemeister vs OSSC
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2018, 11:16:47 AM »
Nice!
(Line 3x mode; scanlines at 25%; hybrid value at 100%; multiplication)
Most people like a strong presence of the blank lines (well, the black lines most people call 'scanlines' you know what I mean) so their settings typically have scanlines much darker and the hybridation less pronounced. But whatever settings are good as long as you like how it looks.
You wouldn't have liked the DISPL and its unique nearly-100% setting!

I also ran the Futari BL X360 port on the same monitor (Arcade mode), and tried out all the scanline options there to compare. None of them looked nearly as natural as the PCB through an OSSC, and the image wasn't as sharp.
Yeah for the 360 games the only thing that works well for filling the screen (besides the so-so 'HD treatment' some like Futari and Galuda II offer) is a DVDO scaler, as those basically zoom the raw picture by any % you need without the drawbacks of scaling artifacts or having to use muddy filters. DVDO scaling by itself is a little bit soft but in a pleasant way, not like those ugly filters.
They add only about 6ms lag, hardly something even the best player will notice.
Not sure they're still worth the cash though, VP20, VP30 and VP50 can sometimes be found at reasonable prices, but they're getting really scarce on the aftermarket and some people try to profit from that, like with everything else 'retro'.

Sigma AV7000 supergun > JP21 RGB cable > JP21-to-SCART RGB adapter > OSSC SCART RGB input > HDMI output > Dell U2414H monitor HDMI input
Good. Raw RGB properly multiplied and no lag. Hard to do any better with an external scaler and LCD.

Offline EOJ

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Re: Playing SH3 games on an LCD monitor: Framemeister vs OSSC
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2018, 04:32:32 PM »
Most people like a strong presence of the blank lines (well, the black lines most people call 'scanlines' you know what I mean) so their settings typically have scanlines much darker and the hybridation less pronounced. But whatever settings are good as long as you like how it looks.


Yeah, I tried out several other settings I found online (that people recommended), such as scanlines 50%, hybrid 50%, and scanlines 87%, hybrid 25%. I will try to take pics of those today with MFBLA so you can see the difference. They look good too, but the scanlines are too prominent to my eyes. When I played on a PVM or in an arcade cabinet I never really noticed the scanlines, I mean, they aren't so noticeable all the time. They just sort of blend into the total picture naturally, instead of looking like there is a grating on top of the picture.

Another setting I sort of liked was scanlines 50%, hybrid 143%. I don't know what hybridization specifically does, but it seems to remove the unnatural and prominent darkness that simulated scanlines present with, and blends them more naturally with the rest of the picture signal. This makes it more in line with what I see on a CRT.
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Offline EOJ

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Re: Playing SH3 games on an LCD monitor: Framemeister vs OSSC
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2018, 04:55:43 AM »
I was playing with scanlines at 50% and hybrid 87% tonight and I think that's my new favorite. It looks very close to my old PVM monitor.

No pics today, maybe tomorrow.
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Offline xygax

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Re: Playing SH3 games on an LCD monitor: Framemeister vs OSSC
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2018, 02:59:44 AM »
You'll find yourself changing the scanlines settings too often for comfort.  :P
That's because unlike with CRTs you have to adapt your settings to the game's graphics, also taking the current LCD's specs into account.
Some games look flashy, some much less contrasted, some have very detailed pixel art, some only so-so prerendered sprites, etc
There just isn't 'one' scanlines setting for them all. You can use several profile slots for a single system though.

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Re: Playing SH3 games on an LCD monitor: Framemeister vs OSSC
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2018, 11:04:20 PM »
Muchi Muchi Pork looks incredible on this setup. Perhaps even better than on a CRT.  :o
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Offline xygax

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Re: Playing SH3 games on an LCD monitor: Framemeister vs OSSC
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2018, 05:27:57 AM »
Maybe because of its more pixel-art cartooney style? other similarly prerendered Cave games have more straight-out rendered models and backgrounds, those typically show lots of color tones that look ok on a CRT but not really on a LCD no matter the scaling and filtering efforts.
I've noticed MMP's one of the best looking out of a DVDO w/out fake scanlines as well.

PS: post more pics!  :P