Author Topic: To all you XBOX 360 owners......Lets Keep our fingers crossed  (Read 4605 times)

Harlequin

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Re: To all you XBOX 360 owners......Lets Keep our fingers crossed
« Reply #30 on: January 07, 2010, 12:33:42 AM »
Question: Why is Cave making ports on the XBox360?

It wont matter how many games they port on that box i wont buy one, even if they make a 100% perfect arcade port of MMP.

Why wont they port to PS3? Then i WILL have an excuse to buy a next gen console :P

Anyway i have been missing for a while so i might have missed why CAVE has so much Microsoft love lately :/


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Offline EOJ

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Re: To all you XBOX 360 owners......Lets Keep our fingers crossed
« Reply #31 on: January 07, 2010, 01:06:45 AM »

It wont matter how many games they port on that box i wont buy one, even if they make a 100% perfect arcade port of MMP.



Yes, we know. You've posted that here multiple times in the past. Unfortunately, your best hope to play these games is to wait until after 2016 when they've been partially emulated in MAME. In the meantime the rest of us will be enjoying them.  :righton:
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Offline moebinkay

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Re: To all you XBOX 360 owners......Lets Keep our fingers crossed
« Reply #32 on: January 07, 2010, 01:17:05 AM »
Question: Why is Cave making ports on the XBox360?

It wont matter how many games they port on that box i wont buy one, even if they make a 100% perfect arcade port of MMP.

Why wont they port to PS3? Then i WILL have an excuse to buy a next gen console :P

Anyway i have been missing for a while so i might have missed why CAVE has so much Microsoft love lately

Good Question. I think there is a couple of reasons involved:-

A. Many companies find it difficult developing games for the PS3 even Blizzard I know has boycotted doing so due to this issue.

B. Xbox 360 console is a more arcade dedicated machine as you know with its Live Arcade store.

C. Microsoft have been very positive with bringing faithful arcade ports (example ikaruga) to the 360

although I do agree with you, I prefer the ps3

Offline NR777

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Re: To all you XBOX 360 owners......Lets Keep our fingers crossed
« Reply #33 on: January 07, 2010, 01:45:38 AM »


It wont matter how many games they port on that box i wont buy one, even if they make a 100% perfect arcade port of MMP.


...and this is what unwavering brand loyalty does for you. 

Seriously though, there are many reasons a smaller company like Cave would not want to develop for the PS3:

1. Cost.  Sony's Dev kits are a great deal more expensive than Microsoft's Dev kits. Bluray is more expensive than DVD. 

2. Ease of development.  The PS3 is notoriously difficult and time consuming to program for.  Why Sony chose such a bizarre processor architecture is beyond me. All of this leads back to reason #1.

3. Support.  Sony's track record this gen for technical support of third party devs hasn't exactly been something to cheer about. 

4. Mind you, this is hearsay: Sony apparently told Cave they weren't interested in their titles.

5. This is speculation: since Sony is still selling the PS3 at a loss, there is a strong possibility that their licensing fees were also higher.  Not good if you want to maximize profitability as an independent publisher/developer.

Not hating on the PS3, just sayin'.

Offline Monouchi

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Re: To all you XBOX 360 owners......Lets Keep our fingers crossed
« Reply #34 on: January 07, 2010, 02:27:42 AM »
I have them both. (+ a Jap 360) and I really like the PS3 (Bluray etc etc...)

But as stated above, it is trickier to develop on the PS3, in the game company I work there is always some cursing about the PS3 architecture.

Also, didnt Sony say: -No 2D games on PS3.
?

Megalixir

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Re: To all you XBOX 360 owners......Lets Keep our fingers crossed
« Reply #35 on: January 07, 2010, 02:34:52 AM »
But Disgaea 3 and Idea Factory games are on the PS3.

Harlequin

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Re: To all you XBOX 360 owners......Lets Keep our fingers crossed
« Reply #36 on: January 07, 2010, 02:38:03 AM »

Yes, we know. You've posted that here multiple times in the past. Unfortunately, your best hope to play these games is to wait until after 2016 when they've been partially emulated in MAME. In the meantime the rest of us will be enjoying them.  :righton:

I have upset the boss :P Ok no more MS hating, just for the record i hate both Sony and MS, so there is no loyalty rubbish for my reasons for not buying one, like EOJ said, i have posted countless times on both forums why i will never buy a XBox360, ill just repeat it here for those too lazy to go search (like me) I wont pay for something that blows up 40% of the time.

Thanks for the responses guys, not good that Sony gave the finger to CAVE :( Guess ill go back to playing my shitty ports on PS2  :righton:

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Offline EOJ

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Re: To all you XBOX 360 owners......Lets Keep our fingers crossed
« Reply #37 on: January 07, 2010, 02:42:17 AM »
I was just goofing around with ya, not upset in the least. ;)

If you hate both MS and Sony, would you like Cave ports on the Wii then?
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Offline NR777

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Re: To all you XBOX 360 owners......Lets Keep our fingers crossed
« Reply #38 on: January 07, 2010, 02:44:38 AM »
But Disgaea 3 and Idea Factory games are on the PS3.

...and those games are likely to sell more copies, greatly mitigating the risk associated with development cost.

Offline Monouchi

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Re: To all you XBOX 360 owners......Lets Keep our fingers crossed
« Reply #39 on: January 07, 2010, 03:07:08 AM »
If you hate both MS and Sony, would you like Cave ports on the Wii then?

 :laugh:
...dodging bullets with the Wii-mote could be interesting.  :P

And dont hate so much, lets spend the love instead and think about that we actually get Cave ports.
Some years ago, I couldnt dream about how it is today with lots of Cave games being playable on the consoles.

And in my opinion it is even better than a PCB cos you get HD graphics!....so now my old eyes finally can see those bullets clearly!  :o

Offline Kewing

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Re: To all you XBOX 360 owners......Lets Keep our fingers crossed
« Reply #40 on: January 07, 2010, 03:31:20 AM »

And dont hate so much, lets spend the love instead and think about that we actually get Cave ports.
Some years ago, I couldnt dream about how it is today with lots of Cave games being playable on the consoles.

And in my opinion it is even better than a PCB cos you get HD graphics!....so now my old eyes finally can see those bullets clearly!  :o

As much as I dislike the way they're doing it, with all the region lockout annoyance and the like, that statement is something I couldn't agree with more, and that all of us should remember in the first place.
Back when I visited Japan I and falling in love with the games, I thought they would remain arcade only for an eternity; fortunately, I was wrong.

Megalixir

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Re: To all you XBOX 360 owners......Lets Keep our fingers crossed
« Reply #41 on: January 07, 2010, 05:13:44 AM »
But Disgaea 3 and Idea Factory games are on the PS3.

...and those games are likely to sell more copies, greatly mitigating the risk associated with development cost.

Point missed. They're full 2D games released for the PS3 at retail price.

Offline bcass

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Re: To all you XBOX 360 owners......Lets Keep our fingers crossed
« Reply #42 on: January 07, 2010, 06:29:19 AM »
2. Ease of development.  The PS3 is notoriously difficult and time consuming to program for.  Why Sony chose such a bizarre processor architecture is beyond me. All of this leads back to reason #1.

Sony chose such obscure hardware in order to ensure a certain level of exclusivity on their system.  Coding on their system means your code is a lot less portable than if you code on the other systems.  Basically, Sony thought they had so much power in the industry, they thought everyone would automatically develop for the PS3.  This didn't happen and the whole thing has backfired, which is one reason why they're in 3rd place this gen.  Some say it was also an attempt to slow down the rate of progress, in that it would take developers longer to tap into the hardware, thus increasing the shelf life of the console (eg - the proposed ten year cycle).

4. Mind you, this is hearsay: Sony apparently told Cave they weren't interested in their titles.

When the PS3 first appeared, apparently Sony told developers that they didn't want any 2D titles on the system, since 2D was less likely to demonstrate the abilities of the system.  This obviously changed further down the line, no doubt because the realisation had hit them that all their draconian rules was alienating potential development on their already failing system.


CastorKrieg

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Re: To all you XBOX 360 owners......Lets Keep our fingers crossed
« Reply #43 on: January 07, 2010, 08:10:40 AM »
C. Microsoft have been very positive with bringing faithful arcade ports (example ikaruga) to the 360

That is only partially true. Last year there was news that Cave wanted Ketsui and other SHMUPS released as XBLA games. Microsoft refused, that's why they went retail route. Here's the link:

http://www.gamegrep.com/news/8086-5pb_xbla_turned_down_dodonpachi_and_ketsui/

Ikaruga was released because that's the title most gamers in the West recognise. Still, I see no harm putting CAVE games as XBLA, given everyone can buy it and be happy. This generation all companies are giving hardcore gamers big F U.

Offline bcass

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Re: To all you XBOX 360 owners......Lets Keep our fingers crossed
« Reply #44 on: January 07, 2010, 08:28:47 AM »
Looks like there could be another, legitimate, avenue for Cave now (assuming their XBLA efforts come to nothing):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYOmk7psGJo&feature=player_embedded

This new Game Room gets titles up on the 360 and PC.

Offline skykid

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Re: To all you XBOX 360 owners......Lets Keep our fingers crossed
« Reply #45 on: January 07, 2010, 09:14:54 AM »

Yes, we know. You've posted that here multiple times in the past. Unfortunately, your best hope to play these games is to wait until after 2016 when they've been partially emulated in MAME. In the meantime the rest of us will be enjoying them.  :righton:

I have upset the boss :P Ok no more MS hating, just for the record i hate both Sony and MS, so there is no loyalty rubbish for my reasons for not buying one, like EOJ said, i have posted countless times on both forums why i will never buy a XBox360, ill just repeat it here for those too lazy to go search (like me) I wont pay for something that blows up 40% of the time.

Thanks for the responses guys, not good that Sony gave the finger to CAVE :( Guess ill go back to playing my shitty ports on PS2  :righton:

Harlequin


I'll never understand why someone would steer clear of a relatively cheap next gen console with tons of games on it they're desperate to play simply because it's made by a bastard money-grubbing organisation.
Sony are exactly the same, and you bought a PS2.

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Offline Kiken

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Re: To all you XBOX 360 owners......Lets Keep our fingers crossed
« Reply #46 on: January 07, 2010, 10:19:06 AM »
C. Microsoft have been very positive with bringing faithful arcade ports (example ikaruga) to the 360

That is only partially true. Last year there was news that Cave wanted Ketsui and other SHMUPS released as XBLA games. Microsoft refused, that's why they went retail route. Here's the link:

http://www.gamegrep.com/news/8086-5pb_xbla_turned_down_dodonpachi_and_ketsui/

Cave didn't approach MS.  5pb did.  In fact, we still haven't heard if Cave have approached MS regarding Guwange yet.

Ikaruga was released because that's the title most gamers in the West recognise. Still, I see no harm putting CAVE games as XBLA, given everyone can buy it and be happy. This generation all companies are giving hardcore gamers big F U.

No, it was due to the fact that MS's head of XBLA project approval at the time was very open to shmups.  He was replaced sometime in early 2008 (after THE and Ikaruga had hit XBLA).  There was a posting somewhere that they've changed their head approval guy again, so we'll see where this all goes.

Offline NR777

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Re: To all you XBOX 360 owners......Lets Keep our fingers crossed
« Reply #47 on: January 07, 2010, 11:24:36 AM »

Point missed. They're full 2D games released for the PS3 at retail price.

Ah, I missed the post you were actually replying to.

Offline PsychoDiver

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Re: To all you XBOX 360 owners......Lets Keep our fingers crossed
« Reply #48 on: January 07, 2010, 12:01:31 PM »
I heard in the past that western publishers wanted to publish Cave games but they wanted too much money. I am not sure if that was referring to licensing fees or cheaper prices for their products. I personally own all the Castle Shikigami games and both 360 Raiden games, and I know friends who own at least one. They were released on the cheap but they still sold pretty well it seems. I wish Cave could accept a lower price on their games like their counterparts.

Offline moebinkay

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Re: To all you XBOX 360 owners......Lets Keep our fingers crossed
« Reply #49 on: January 07, 2010, 12:08:50 PM »
I heard in the past that western publishers wanted to publish Cave games but they wanted too much money. I am not sure if that was referring to licensing fees or cheaper prices for their products. I personally own all the Castle Shikigami games and both 360 Raiden games, and I know friends who own at least one. They were released on the cheap but they still sold pretty well it seems. I wish Cave could accept a lower price on their games like their counterparts.

I wish I can play raiden like I used to, after I played most cave games raiden seems so slooooooooow  :(

Offline lam47

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Re: To all you XBOX 360 owners......Lets Keep our fingers crossed
« Reply #50 on: January 07, 2010, 01:12:31 PM »
Just like to add that any new 360 is very unlikely to fail. I have fixed about 50 of the things and finally they seem to have addressed it.
Any RROD 360 can be fixed very simply by re flowing the GPU and bolting the heatsinks down. Its not hard to do. I agree you should not have to in the first place of course.
Anyway. The latest revision is using a smaller die size for the GPU. The smaller nm chip should produce almost half the amount of heat as its predecessor and fingers crossed will not pop off the motherboard any more.
MS are quite confident as they no longer use epoxy around the chips.

I don't understand brand loyalty.

Offline bcass

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Re: To all you XBOX 360 owners......Lets Keep our fingers crossed
« Reply #51 on: January 07, 2010, 01:30:51 PM »
Indeed.  The return rates have fallen substantially since the introduction of the Jasper units.  People looking for reasons not to buy this gens best console are just kidding themselves.

Offline NR777

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Re: To all you XBOX 360 owners......Lets Keep our fingers crossed
« Reply #52 on: January 07, 2010, 01:58:20 PM »

Sony chose such obscure hardware in order to ensure a certain level of exclusivity on their system.  Coding on their system means your code is a lot less portable than if you code on the other systems.  Basically, Sony thought they had so much power in the industry, they thought everyone would automatically develop for the PS3.  This didn't happen and the whole thing has backfired, which is one reason why they're in 3rd place this gen.  Some say it was also an attempt to slow down the rate of progress, in that it would take developers longer to tap into the hardware, thus increasing the shelf life of the console (eg - the proposed ten year cycle).

Ah, makes sense: market leader attempts to perpetuate market leadership by forcing the market to conform to its demands and shoots itself in the ass by pricing itself out of said market upon product launch.  Genius.  No wonder Kutaragi-san is gone.

Offline gsl

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Re: To all you XBOX 360 owners......Lets Keep our fingers crossed
« Reply #53 on: January 07, 2010, 03:31:28 PM »
Indeed.  The return rates have fallen substantially since the introduction of the Jasper units.  People looking for reasons not to buy this gens best console are just kidding themselves.
I do admit that I was concerned when I bought my 360 a few months back--it's definitely a Jasper unit, but I was just wondering if maybe the return statistics hadn't built up a critical mass in for that model at the time.  Seeing that Microsoft offers a three-year warranty in the event of a red ring (that's two years over the standard machine warranty and strikes me as both generous and necessary in light of all the bad press) pretty much helped soothe my fears right there.  As long as I can transfer my HD and DLC to a new/repaired model in the event of a failure, I feel pretty good having that level of protection.

One thing that always put me off about all of the RROD horror stories is that a good half of them always seemed to be about "my buddy" or "this guy I knew."  You know--this guy I knew had his 360 go RROD and sent it back to Microsoft and the next one came back and he got a RROD again and then it ate his hard drive and he tried to get a new one and then his Live account was gone and Microsoft wouldn't retrieve it for him etc.  Not to say this maybe didn't happen, and not that the RROD isn't a real problem, but there's no better way to inflate a scare like the inclusion of secondhand accounts.

Offline Hive

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Re: To all you XBOX 360 owners......Lets Keep our fingers crossed
« Reply #54 on: January 07, 2010, 05:38:26 PM »
As far as reliability is concerned:

Falcon > Jasper (?)
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Offline bcass

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Re: To all you XBOX 360 owners......Lets Keep our fingers crossed
« Reply #55 on: January 07, 2010, 05:46:03 PM »
Jasper units are the most reliable so far.  They generate less internal heat than all the other models (a result of less power consumption via more energy efficient CPU/GPU).

Offline EOJ

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Re: To all you XBOX 360 owners......Lets Keep our fingers crossed
« Reply #56 on: January 07, 2010, 06:05:06 PM »
Jasper should be the best due to its lower power consumption (and thus it produces less heat). I had a Falcon before and had zero problems with that too. I think both are pretty reliable.
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Offline lam47

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Re: To all you XBOX 360 owners......Lets Keep our fingers crossed
« Reply #57 on: January 07, 2010, 06:46:04 PM »
Just a couple of things I have noticed.
Microsoft are not using the heatsinks with the copper heat pipe for the GPU any more. I have not seen any of the older fined copper heatsinks on the more recent xbox cpus either. It could be the price of copper or it could be that the older style aluminium heatsinks are enough for the new Jasper units.
There are two revisions of the Jasper board. One has the original GPU which is most likely still epoxy glued down.
The newer Jasper models (I think September 09 is the earliest one found) all have the smaller die GPU and should never die!
So far I have found no way of knowing if a system has the new GPU without opening it and having a look.
The serial tells where it was made and when etc but nothing more.


Offline GaijinPunch

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Re: To all you XBOX 360 owners......Lets Keep our fingers crossed
« Reply #58 on: January 07, 2010, 08:21:17 PM »
Next issue they should fix: The sound.

Offline gsl

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Re: To all you XBOX 360 owners......Lets Keep our fingers crossed
« Reply #59 on: January 08, 2010, 03:03:59 AM »
You mean the various clicking and grinding noises associated with disc and hard drive access?

I figure, if it's quieter than a Dreamcast, it's not a problem.