Author Topic: HD TV and shmups  (Read 2284 times)

PROMETHEUS

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HD TV and shmups
« on: February 05, 2010, 01:05:00 PM »
Hello guys,
me and my roommate are looking to buy a new TV. It's inevitably going to be an HD TV because we play various games on it with PS3 / XBOX360. But my problem is shmupping which I will occasionally do on it :

- Do HD TVs have some sort of display lag issue, as I was told they do, that may slightly interfere with shmuping performance ? How bad does it interfere ? Are there some better than others in that respect ? How can you identify which have less lag ?
- Are there any HD TVs that can easily rotate ? ^^ I don't have a lot of hope on that one. I guess I'll do with yoko.

Offline EOJ

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Re: HD TV and shmups
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2010, 01:17:18 PM »
Most LCDs have noticable lag, I can't play vertical shmups on mine (response time on my LCD is 5ms). You can get lagless ones, but they're pricey.
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Offline croikle

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Re: HD TV and shmups
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2010, 05:40:43 PM »
I doubt the 5ms response time is the issue, as that's about 1/3 of one frame. However, there tends to be lag in processing and other shit, which can be 30ms or so, and you really need to find tests of that to see whether the display is good.

Offline Hive

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Re: HD TV and shmups
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2010, 06:00:18 PM »
Does lag make a difference between LCD and Plasma?

I'm looking into getting a Pioneer 50" HDTV this summer.

It has to be a Plasma for me, because they have much better "true black levels" than LCD.
Seeing them in person, I was really shocked at the difference, even compared with the new Sony Bravia LCDs.

But I may wait until OLED hits the market, even though I don't really know anything about monitors/TVs..
I just know that OLED is expensive to produce still, but is like looking at crystal.
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Offline brentsg

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Re: HD TV and shmups
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2010, 08:11:39 PM »
Yes definitely don't confuse the lag people describe as inherent in the panels with "control lag", which is introduced by the image processing.

There is nothing inherent in Plasma or LCD (or OLED) technology that makes one better than the other for control lag, since it's related to how the image is prepared before being displayed.  I think that Pioneer does a really good job and I don't think you're likely to best the Kuro models for gaming.  I have done some testing, though it is not terribly scientific since I haven't used equipment to perform my measurements.  But I usually see around 45-50ms of control lag in various modes, but when I engage "game mode" and the associated "game control" in the options menu... it reduced processing to the point that control lag approaches 0ms.  It's been a while since I investigated this but I was pleased.  I should note that the testing I did was with HD sources.  You may find the need for an XRGB-3 or something similar for older consoles.

Don't snooze too long on the Pioneers, they are extinct at this point.  Note that the only thing that would prevent me from buying a Kuro is if you need the panel to be particularly durable.  The front of the unit is not glass, but a very delicate film that can be damaged fairly easily..  to the point where it needs to be cleaned with a quality micro-fiber cloth and distilled water.  They definitely aren't a very good choice when you have small children.  I've got a Kuro and 4 year old twins...   :'(

Offline Hive

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Re: HD TV and shmups
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2010, 11:30:55 PM »
haha!! 4-year old twins? that's cute.
Thanks for the thoughtful answer. Is there any way to divvy out reputation points here?

On Topic: I've only heard good things about the Kuro brand of Pioneer HDTVs, but nothing related to SHMUP gaming. :laugh:
There just doesn't seem to be the perfect TV for this stuff, ya know?
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JEP

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Re: HD TV and shmups
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2010, 12:24:44 AM »
There's been a ton of discussion about hdtvs and lag on this forum: http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=174085

Like shmups, fighting game players are very sensitive to lag.  I've noticed on my sony bravia that the vga input seems to be relatively low lag.  Much more so than through hdmi or component, since the signal post processing is minimal to none.  I'd suggest running a 360 through the official vga cables if you go the hdtv route.

Offline Hive

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Re: HD TV and shmups
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2010, 12:32:18 AM »
THANK YOU! I had no idea that would help, JEP, so I'll follow that advice!  :righton:
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zap

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Re: HD TV and shmups
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2010, 08:52:17 AM »
- Are there any HD TVs that can easily rotate ? ^^ I don't have a lot of hope on that one. I guess I'll do with yoko.
You can get a monitor arm which can rotate the TV. Those which can carry around 15kg might be a little pricey though.

Offline Kiel

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Re: HD TV and shmups
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2010, 12:18:53 AM »
If using composite video, s-video, and sometimes component video you run the risk of lag. HDMI should give you no lag since it doesnt have to do the processing to the video source to scale it up like the lesser connections.

Offline EOJ

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Re: HD TV and shmups
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2010, 12:23:55 AM »
Nah, I still get noticable lag on my 32" Toshiba Regza LCD via HDMI, even in "game mode". I can't stand it for shmups, but for other games it's fine.
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Offline brentsg

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Re: HD TV and shmups
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2010, 01:53:42 AM »
Game mode for some TVs is more about making the colors pop than reducing lag.  It varies by make and model, unfortunately.

Offline EOJ

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Re: HD TV and shmups
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2010, 02:30:41 AM »
For mine, it just reduces lag a bit. Not enough, unfortunately.
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Offline Hive

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Re: HD TV and shmups
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2010, 03:58:33 AM »
SED TV technology looks interesting. It notes the response time being really good:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface-conduction_electron-emitter_display
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Offline zakk

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Re: HD TV and shmups
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2010, 10:12:49 PM »
SED TV technology looks interesting. It notes the response time being really good:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface-conduction_electron-emitter_display

SED is pretty much dead. It was 'about to come out, totally going to happen next year' for nearly a decade.

And then there was a huge licensing/patent fight between some of the principle technology partners. They claim it is still viable as a 'pro display technology' which means very very high prices. So maybe one day we can all drop $10k+ on a decent HD gaming display!


JEP

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Re: HD TV and shmups
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2010, 11:15:02 PM »
SED TV technology looks interesting. It notes the response time being really good:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface-conduction_electron-emitter_display

SED is pretty much dead. It was 'about to come out, totally going to happen next year' for nearly a decade.

And then there was a huge licensing/patent fight between some of the principle technology partners. They claim it is still viable as a 'pro display technology' which means very very high prices. So maybe one day we can all drop $10k+ on a decent HD gaming display!



Bummer, it sounds promising.

Offline Hive

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Re: HD TV and shmups
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2010, 02:15:49 AM »
that's really depressing!  :-[

So what new HDTV tech can we look forward to in say, 3 -5 years? (besides 3D...)
Just OLED?
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zap

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Re: HD TV and shmups
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2010, 08:52:14 PM »
Anyone playing on IPS screens? I'm curious about the lag. I'm no hardcore player and usually don't notice lag (except with bemani games on HD TVs), and most IPS screen have 1-3 frames lag. Is it anything to really bother about for a non hardcore player?