I haz some Cave questions

[skykid]

The experts are all here, and I can't keep up with a lot of the forum threads so I'm probably missing loads of info. If you don't mind I'm just gonna' bunch all the questions I have together (based on snippets of things I've heard here and there) and hopefully one of you educated guys can lay them to rest for me.

- I heard EOJ mention somewhere that MBL on the Japanese port is absolutely fucked. Is this true and why? 

- Which mode of Deathsmiles IIX is the decent one? I've heard that one is meant to be a bit screwed and not worth attacking, but flitting between the two I don't know what I'm looking for?

- Mushihimesama Futari port: someone told me that the Xbox 360 mode is known to have a little lag or slower input than the arcade mode (and I do seem to find it slightly wooly compared to my PCB) Is this a well known fact that 360 mode is basically not worth playing?

- Can someone, in a brief sentence (I know this is going to be tough) summarize the basic scoring technique in DSIIX (in whichever mode is the more worthwhile)?

- What are the differences in DDP DFK BL compared to the original, and which is the better game, this or 1.5?

- Is there a DDP DFK 1.51, and is it on an upgrade service offered by Cave or some unreleased matsuri biz?

Really, really sorry for throwing all these out there, but this being the Cave forum I figure it's my best chance at tying up some loose ends. Thanks for the help folks. 

[EOJ]

OMG, the answers to nearly all of those questions have been posted here multiple times. Just do some basic searches! There's even a whole thread for DFK ver 1.51!

One question I've never seen is this one:

- Mushihimesama Futari port: someone told me that the Xbox 360 mode is known to have a little lag or slower input than the arcade mode (and I do seem to find it slightly wooly compared to my PCB) Is this a well known fact that 360 mode is basically not worth playing?

I don't think this is true, but I have not tested it with any fancy lag-detecting software or equipment.

[skykid]

OMG, the answers to nearly all of those questions have been posted here multiple times. Just do some basic searches! There's even a whole thread for DFK ver 1.51!

I know, I know, I'm sorry! But can't you just humour me - it'll only take you 5 mins, but save me ages thread trawling for all this stuff. 

- Mushihimesama Futari port: someone told me that the Xbox 360 mode is known to have a little lag or slower input than the arcade mode (and I do seem to find it slightly wooly compared to my PCB) Is this a well known fact that 360 mode is basically not worth playing?

I don't think this is true, but I have not tested it with any fancy lag-detecting software or equipment.
[/quote]

I just noticed when playing the port, I seem to get caught out far more often than the PCB and it seems that the response time is minutely too slow. I'm using a TE stick and all seems fine on Ketsui and Deathsmiles - it's just Futari that seems to be an issue. When I mentioned it on shmups, some dude confirmed that there were differences in response time between 360 mode and arcade mode, and that I should be playing arcade for the most authentic version (I'm yet to practice this though.)

I would have thought you'd be the first to know. It's a theory that does seem to answer the question of my annoyance with the port though - I play 360 mode exclusively.

[JOW]

- Mushihimesama Futari port: someone told me that the Xbox 360 mode is known to have a little lag or slower input than the arcade mode (and I do seem to find it slightly wooly compared to my PCB) Is this a well known fact that 360 mode is basically not worth playing?

The general consensus seems to be that the modes are identical apart from the graphics so I wouldn't get hung up experimenting with different modes.

As regards lag - the default mode (1V Fast) is too fast if you are playing on a CRT. Judging by the settings it appears that the PCB has one frame of lag and this should be recreated correctly by using the 2V (PCB) setting in the Screen Settings menu (again this is the same for all modes).

EOJ posted the same recommendation not long after the port was released and indeed stated that the Port is a little easier to score on due extra slow down in certain places.

[njiska]

I've actually had a problem with Mushi in X360 mode where the game seems to run too fast following a bunch of slow down. The first stage mid boss is an example. After everything explodes just as the boss moves into the field the frame rate seems to jump up then settle down. I'm also playing with a CRT.

[skykid]

I'm playing only on an LCD 360 mode, and haven't made any adjustments to the speed - everything is on default. I swear, having played the PCB extensively, the port is harder because there's a miniscule issue with responsiveness. I'll die trying on the port far more often than on the PCB, and caught with weird things I don't usually get caught by.

[skykid]

Right, so I just spent half an hour searching through 35 pages of the Deathsmiles thread to try to find out why MBL is fucked and eventually ran across this:

Seems like while MBL Arcade is lacking slowdown in the ice palace, the slowdown there isn't really necessary, while MBL X360 mode is lacking slowdown in rank 999 levels and the last boss, and it IS necessary there. So in the end, MBL Arcade seems to be the one to go for, if you're interested competing with the scores in the arcade. Personally I find MBL X360 mode to be rather fun (until the last boss), but I don't choose any rank 999 levels when I play.

Is that it then?

To be honest, I do apologise for asking several questions, the answers of which are hidden like buried treasure amongst several mammoth threads (EDIT: I know the summary of DS2's scoring is unreasonable, I can search that out) - but otherwise, if it's too much to ask for a recap from the guys in the know I think I'll leave the others unanswered cos thread trawling for the specifics is arduous.

I might throw it open to the folks on shmups, I just figured as they're Cave related queries they'd get mopped up a little quicker here.  

[Hive]

doesn't the slowdown depend on the refresh-rate of your TV?

[skykid]

^ I don't think so??

Okay found the info on dfk 1.51. Hope that turns up as DLC on the port

[EOJ]

Right, so I just spent half an hour searching through 35 pages of the Deathsmiles thread to try to find out why MBL is fucked and eventually ran across this:

Sorry about that - I thought there was a slowdown accuracy thread on DSMBL in the review forum, but it seems there is not (just DS and DSII there). I have no clue why I would say the lack of slowdown in the Ice Palace was a non-issue, it must have been a long time ago after one too many shots of whiskey.

Anyway, I've answered the question of DSMBL slowdown accuracy in many threads on more than one forum, so it just seems to me like it's been discussed ad nauseum. Here's a post that should give you what you seek:

http://www.cave-stg.com/forum/index.php?topic=346.msg18143#msg18143

[EOJ]

- Which mode of Deathsmiles IIX is the decent one? I've heard that one is meant to be a bit screwed and not worth attacking, but flitting between the two I don't know what I'm looking for?

Arcade mode is the best. Deep, endlessly fun scoring. Fast pace, good difficulty curve. Overall, a better game than Deathsmiles. X360 Mode is the runner-up. Also a deep scoring system (but quite different in many fundamental aspects), more boss milking, 16:9 screen, improved graphics, two extra characters, new TLB. I did not like this mode very much initially, but after figuring out the nuances of the game and playing it properly, it became pretty fun (still wish they included a 16:9 HD mode with the Arcade mode scoring system, though). Not something I'll play for a long period of time, though (similar to Ibara BL - fun for a time, but not a game you'll play for years and still find exciting). The boss milking is based on DSII Arcade ver 2.0. Arrange is definitely an acquired taste. Top scoring requires dozens of minutes of boss milking across the game, far more than even X360 mode. Far too much bullet cancelling, too (I hate that you can cancel bullets with your shot when you're not in power up mode). It's OK for a rainy day, I suppose, when you've been burned out on the other Cave games and want to try something really complex and weird.

- Can someone, in a brief sentence (I know this is going to be tough) summarize the basic scoring technique in DSIIX (in whichever mode is the more worthwhile)?

See the strategy thread for the game.

- What are the differences in DDP DFK BL compared to the original, and which is the better game, this or 1.5?

These are discussed in the DFK BL thread. Most people here who have played both extensively seem to prefer BL, but that was the same story with Futari, and I vastly prefer Futari 1.5 to BL. I only played DFK BL once, and it was a lot of fun, but I cannot say anymore than that. DFK 1.5 became pretty boring to me before I ever played BL. Best features of BL are no second loop and Futari-style difficulties. If I were a betting man, I'd bet on DFK BL.

[EOJ]

I'm playing only on an LCD 360 mode, and haven't made any adjustments to the speed - everything is on default.

What kind of LCD? All LCDs have more input lag than a CRT, some have 3+ frames. I cannot play the Futari port on my LCD (which has 2 frames of lag on my LCD TV), because it lags (due to my TV, not the port). On my CRT, Arcade and 360 modes feel 100% identical to me, and I've even played the PCB and port back to back over and over on the same monitor. No difference at all in this regard, definitely arcade accurate. I can score higher on the port than the PCB, too (due to the sharper X360 mode graphics, I'd reckon).

Moral of the story: don't play verts on an LCD (unless you have one of those select few that has under 10ms lag).

[brentsg]

These are discussed in the DFK BL thread. Most people here who have played both extensively seem to prefer BL, but that was the same story with Futari, and I vastly prefer Futari 1.5 to BL. I only played DFK BL once, and it was a lot of fun, but I cannot say anymore than that. DFK 1.5 became pretty boring to me before I ever played BL. Best features of BL are no second loop and Futari-style difficulties. If I were a betting man, I'd bet on DFK BL.

I haven't played enough Futari to say that I've uncovered every intricacy, but I have played both versions enough to understand why you would feel this way.  I can also see valid reasons for people to have varied opinions on most of the vanilla vs. black label games.

But with DFK..  man..  The only reason I can see to prefer the 1.5 release over BL is that they've invested so damn much time learning the patterns and chaining, that it's just difficult to appreciate a newer version of the game.  I know Adverse prefers 1.5, and I certainly can't question him on it since he's obviously far better at both.  But I really simply can't wrap my head around someone preferring 1.5. 

Note:  I'm not dogging 1.5 here either, it's just that BL is so damn good.  I actually quite like 1.5.

[EOJ]

Yeah, I think those that really get great satisfaction from learning and mastering good old' fashioned Donpachi chaining, and enjoy the challenge of going through a second loop with harder patterns in each run, will prefer 1.5. I enjoy neither of those things, which makes BL sound more appealing to me. Also, autobomb on/off is a great addition.

Maybe once people play 1.51 they will enjoy that more than 1.5?

[brentsg]

I need to review the 1.51 changes but I'm anxious for the port.  If nothing else, I'm sure that it will be possible to play the second 1.5 loop without having to play through the first.

The red meter is really neat in BL, because you can essentially alter the bullet patterns at will.  Want the scoring challenge, run at full red.  Half-drunk..  lay off the red meter.  Sure, you won't score for shit but it's still fun.  I'll have to compare to some 1.5 loop 2 videos sometime, to see if full red is pretty much just loop2  bullet patterns.

It's also cool how the bomb/hyper items are handled.  Even with autobomb off, you can still use hypers defensively if you need to here and there.  Of course you'll run the rank up if you abuse it.

[GaijinPunch]

I need to review the 1.51 changes but I'm anxious for the port.  If nothing else, I'm sure that it will be possible to play the second 1.5 loop without having to play through the first.

The changes in 1.51, as per a Cave developer that was meandering around the festival, said as you use hypers and jack the rank up, the 2nd loop patterns are triggered (all in the first loop).

[skykid]

Thanks, that was really helpful! I had caught several topics on the butchery of the US version, but that post really ironed out a few things for me. It can be tough to figure out which modes are best to play, especially when you notice some barely perceptual inconsistency between the port and the PCB experience that seems to be hampering your game -   it would be nice if Cave could keep some consistency between them.  

So no more x360 mode on vanilla for me - man, it's going to look rough on my LCD. Still, MBL 360 is still worth a play.

Now I just need to figure out Futari's foibles. I'd just stick to the arrange mode if it wasnt so rubbish.

EDIT: Okay, just read all the other posts. DS2X seems incredibly complicated, but I'm probably alone in feeling as though it's quite a fun venture beneath the off putting exterior. I bought it so I may as well put some time into it.

DFK has an autobomb off feature? I think I'll have to wait for the DLC announcement before investing too much time in vanilla - its features sound like a winner to me.

Thanks EOJ and others for bringing me up to speed on this stuff, that's saved me a lot of bother and I can jump back into the ports without worry now.

Most important thing I've learned: I need a new TV. 

[njiska]

Most important thing I've learned: I need an OLD TV. 

There, fixed it for you. When it comes to shmupping nothing beats a good solid CRT and unfortunately you just can't seem to buy good one new anymore. I went out of my way to find an HD Tube and it's been fantastic, though I'm looking to replace it with a Sony Wega FD Trinitron 34XBR960

You may also want to consider picking up a tri-mode 25" Arcade Monitor to play your shmups on. Just hook up the 360 directly via the VGA cables and enjoy the best experience you can get.

[skykid]

Most important thing I've learned: I need an OLD TV. 

There, fixed it for you. When it comes to shmupping nothing beats a good solid CRT and unfortunately you just can't seem to buy good one new anymore. I went out of my way to find an HD Tube and it's been fantastic, though I'm looking to replace it with a Sony Wega FD Trinitron 34XBR960

You may also want to consider picking up a tri-mode 25" Arcade Monitor to play your shmups on. Just hook up the 360 directly via the VGA cables and enjoy the best experience you can get.

Well my issue is space. I got rid of my old Trinitron because it was just too huge and my new flat doesn't have the space for it. I have a CRT in the bedroom (also a trinitron) but it's tiny.
I'm well aware that playing lo-res on LCD is a no-no, so I invested in an XRGB-2+ to accommodate all my 2D console needs and it's a wonderful device.
The thing is I didn't really realise that 360 shmupping would suffer so much on the LCD, but after playing Cave stuff on my Egret II extensively I really notice the difference (especially when EOJ favours the 1.5 port so well.)

I think the best option would be to put my Xbox 360 inside my Egret II, but it's getting a little busy in there. Also, Emph did give me some pointers on putting a 360 in a cab, but alas, it all seems quite complicated to my tiny mind. 

I don't suppose running the Xbox 360 through my XRGB-2+ will improve things at all? Failing that, what if I buy a VGA cable for the 360 and plug that into the VGA port on the LCD?

Sorry for the questions, I got so much on my plate at the moment tech stuff just gives me a headache.

[njiska]

Depending on your LCD there may be less processing on the VGA port so that's definitely worth a try. Putting it in a game mode if it has one may also work to reduce processing lag. You also want to make sure the 360's output res is the same as the LCD. Scaling in TV may add addition lag.

Personally I think putting the 360 in your Egret II is by far the best option but i believe it will need to go through the XRGB because of the resolution of the display. Not sure how much hassle wiring controls is, but it's most likely worth the trouble.

[skykid]

Depending on your LCD there may be less processing on the VGA port so that's definitely worth a try. Putting it in a game mode if it has one may also work to reduce processing lag. You also want to make sure the 360's output res is the same as the LCD. Scaling in TV may add addition lag.

Personally I think putting the 360 in your Egret II is by far the best option but i believe it will need to go through the XRGB because of the resolution of the display. Not sure how much hassle wiring controls is, but it's most likely worth the trouble.

Thanks, I'm going to run a few checks when I get back. I'm condfident the 360's resolution is set at one the TV displays normally, but there might be a game mode on the TV within the options. I'll also grab my bro's VGA connector when I see him next and see if that helps at all.

I like the idea of the 360 in the E2, but it's a lot of hassle, especially as I wouldn't want the XRGB-2+ tied up there - it's serving several consoles already all tied to the TV.

Sigh, I wish I was a millionaire like Gaijinpunch.

[njiska]

I like the idea of the 360 in the E2, but it's a lot of hassle, especially as I wouldn't want the XRGB-2+ tied up there - it's serving several consoles already all tied to the TV.

Sigh, I wish I was a millionaire like Gaijinpunch.

Well you could just build a wiring harness to come out of the cab and connect the XRGB to take in order to make moving it around easier.

[SuperPang]

Sigh, I wish I was a millionaire like Gaijinpunch.

Isn't everyone in Japan?

[Strider77]

Sigh, I wish I was a millionaire like Gaijinpunch.

uhhhh, your the one discussing the woes and troubles of fitting a 360 into your egret 2  

[EOJ]

DS2X seems incredibly complicated, but I'm probably alone in feeling as though it's quite a fun venture beneath the off putting exterior.

I've been heaping praise on DSII for a year, but much of it falls on deaf ears, or the eyes of those who have never played it but do not like the way it looks in grainy youtube videos. I think it's better than Deathsmiles, Ketsui, and DDPDOJ.

[skykid]

DS2X seems incredibly complicated, but I'm probably alone in feeling as though it's quite a fun venture beneath the off putting exterior.

I've been heaping praise on DSII for a year, but much of it falls on deaf ears, or the eyes of those who have never played it but do not like the way it looks in grainy youtube videos. I think it's better than Deathsmiles, Ketsui, and DDPDOJ.

I already mentioned on shmups a couple of times that after sitting down and giving it a couple of hours, I could see instantly how they'd managed to iron out some of the annoyances of the original Deathsmiles - and that's without having a clue about scoring. But I'd really have to go more in-depth with it to properly pass judgement.

Oddly enough, we seem to share quite a few similar opinions on Cave stuff - some of the stuff you mention, like about DS 1.01 feeling like a weakly composed add on, Mushi's crappy arrange, and the indifference toward DDP DFK 1.5 all rings true for me too.
I'm also in the 1.5 > Futari BL camp.

Only difference is you know how to score big in these games, while I just toil away. I think my shmupping is too diluted these days. 

Sigh, I wish I was a millionaire like Gaijinpunch.

uhhhh, your the one discussing the woes and troubles of fitting a 360 into your egret 2 

I'm pretty sure owning a cab doesn't make you well off. There are plenty of scrubs I can think of in the UK who have supplanted the vacant space a girlfriend should be with a hunk or two of Japanese candy (although I'm neither a scrub nor single, for the record.  )

Well you could just build a wiring harness to come out of the cab and connect the XRGB to take in order to make moving it around easier.

I think the 'building wiring harness' part may be a problem. 

[brentsg]

Grab one of those console to arcade adapters that were offered on shmups, and have undamned build the harness for you.

[skykid]

Grab one of those console to arcade adapters that were offered on shmups, and have undamned build the harness for you.

I do believe I pm'd the guy doing the console to arcade adaptors but he wasn't doing another run just yet (unless I'm thinking of something else?)

I didn't think of Undamned though, I've actually got a bunch of JP scart adaptors I've been waiting for from him, I'll see if I can add it to the order - thanks for the tip! 

[brentsg]

That adapter is what you want, trust me.

That's better than trying to work with the xrgb.  Track down a used one, they aren't hard to get, since putting consoles in cabs can be a fleeting desire.

[skykid]

Most important thing I've learned: I need an OLD TV. 

There, fixed it for you. When it comes to shmupping nothing beats a good solid CRT and unfortunately you just can't seem to buy good one new anymore. I went out of my way to find an HD Tube and it's been fantastic, though I'm looking to replace it with a Sony Wega FD Trinitron 34XBR960

Well holy shit. Asketh and lord delivers. I just found this Bang & Olufsen CRT a stones-throw from my place in a skip. I know most of you are shmups members, so please feel free to offer any advice, I hope I can get it working (fingers crossed): 

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=33142