Personally I never cared at all for 1CC lists or stuff like that, 1CC-ing a thousand games of the same difficulty in the same genre isn't any more difficult than clearing only one of them. It only means you did a memorizing effort on a lot of different games.
I actually totally avoid starting to play a new game. If I think I want to start a new one, I weigh the pros and cons and make sure I feel really done with the one I used to play. Then I stick to it for ages.
Quote from: PROMETHEUS on March 26, 2009, 03:01:02 PM
1CC-ing a thousand games of the same difficulty in the same genre isn't any more difficult than clearing only one of them.
Of course it is, for the simple fact that the games are of varying difficulties. And if clearing all of them is as hard as clearing one of them, then everyone would have the same number of clears! :laugh: Or at least a clear for every game they've played.
Yeah, if they are of varying difficulty, then it's the same as having cleared only the hardest one. For example, the western player I admire the most is MisterMonkeyMan. Not for his number of clears, not for his DFK or Galuda score, but solely considering his amazing Ketsui play which is his biggest achievement. In the same way, I am impressed by SWY because of his Futari Ultra play. The fact that he also did a big score at DDP or Ikaruga doesn't surprise or impress me after I have seen that one, because I see it as the hardest to reach.
Quote from: PROMETHEUS on March 26, 2009, 03:07:19 PM
Yeah, if they are of varying difficulty, then it's the same as having cleared only the hardest one.
How do you measure 'hardest'? Yes there are some clear divisions (Futari Ultra is harder than Futari Maniac), but as we can see from our 'rank CAVE difficulties' thread, people vary widely on what they consider hard.
Each game is a separate experience and clearing each one is a separate achievement. This thread isn't called "who can beat the hardest game and thus has the ability to beat all easier games", after all.
It is sometimes difficult to measure but 2-ALLing Ketsui is definitely much, much, much harder than clearing Galuda or Futari Maniac, for example. But yeah, I do think someone who can beat the hardest game thus has the ability to beat all the easier ones, if they use similar skills (for example Ikaruga uses more methodical skills whereas Caves require more danmaku skills and that's different).
Alright. But again, that is not relevant to this thread. The 'potential' to beat a game is irrelevant for this thread. We are looking at actual accomplishments here.
can't say i really cared about 1CC stuff either. a 1-ALL on doj with 100+ mill wouldn't impress me as much as a 600+ mill score where the player died on the 1-5 boss ^-^ especially with looping games, if your objective is just to make a 1-ALL, then you can use bombs all the time (which will lose you potential scoring) :-\ i think 1CC topics are bad because they perpetuate that style of play :-[
I split this from the main thread, in case you guys want to keep discussing aspects of it here.
Quote from: jpj on March 26, 2009, 03:27:12 PM
can't say i really cared about 1CC stuff either. a 1-ALL on doj with 100+ mill wouldn't impress me as much as a 600+ mill score where the player died on the 1-5 boss ^-^ especially with looping games, if your objective is just to make a 1-ALL, then you can use bombs all the time (which will lose you potential scoring) :-\ i think 1CC topics are bad because they perpetuate that style of play :-[
Yes, I very much agree with all of that.
"Who ALL one game can ALL all games"
Now I could remember my begin in shmups. :laugh:
Cool!
I'd rather have a huge list of game clears than an impressive score in one or two shmups. For me it's not about beating difficult games, it's about experiencing them. Every shmup plays differently, you come across different scoring systems, different attack patterns, levels, enemies, bosses...every game is an unique experience. Considering the sheer number of them out there, I feel I'd be missing a lot if I just stick to one game for years (I have a deep respect for people who can do that though, as they are the ones who pull off the most impressive scores).
Quote from: Ruldra on March 26, 2009, 05:27:18 PM
I'd rather have a huge list of game clears than an impressive score in one or two shmups. For me it's not about beating difficult games, it's about experiencing them. Every shmup plays differently, you come across different scoring systems, different attack patterns, levels, enemies, bosses...every game is an unique experience. Considering the sheer number of them out there, I feel I'd be missing a lot if I just stick to one game for years (I have a deep respect for people who can do that though, as they are the ones who end up pulling off the most impressive scores).
Yeah that makes sense. That's enjoying STGs as art and culture - I enjoy games like Half Life 2, GTA IV or Devil May Cry that way myself. Not STGs though, dunno why.
Quote from: Ruldra on March 26, 2009, 05:27:18 PM
I'd rather have a huge list of game clears than an impressive score in one or two shmups.
Why not strive for both? I like clears, they're satisfying in and of themselves, but I try and get a very good score + clear when I play a game seriously. I'm definitely happier with a new personal best high score without a clear than a lower scoring clear, of course, but when I pull both together, I think that is the most satisfying experience these games can offer.
I know many people don't care much for score, and are satisfied when they just get the 1CC. Different strokes for different folks.
imagine if all the western ikaruga players had stopped playing as soon as they got the clear .. :oogle: =D
and yeah, just do whatever is fun for you :) personally, i'm not even sure if fun is even the right word. i think the enjoyment i get out of it is from accomplishing something, or breaking through a barrier. in music and literature, i think there's a proper term for it - when you have rising tension climaxing, and then juxtaposed with serenity. i'm not wording this very well, but i think the joy is proportionate to how much time (read: pain/anger/frustration) you've invested into learning it. if i had a single WR, i'd be more proud of that than a hundred mid-level 1CCs. i'm sure i could've bombed my way through stages 4 and 5 on progear, and got a 1-ALL before i sold it, but i think it would've been an empty victory. but that's just my thoughts :-* so i can understand why some people play the same games deeply and intently. my fav western player is benjamin bouloch. 3000 hours on radiant silvergun and counting :oogle: :righton:
Quote from: jpj on March 26, 2009, 08:17:55 PM3000 hours on radiant silvergun and counting :oogle: :righton:
With this time I would can get the Homura WR .
Cool!
Quote from: jpj on March 26, 2009, 08:17:55 PMi'm sure i could've bombed my way through stages 4 and 5 on progear, and got a 1-ALL before i sold it....
You sold your Progear board? Why?? :(
made redundant a couple of weeks ago, and need the money. sold my battle garegga board as well :'(
Quote from: EOJ on March 26, 2009, 07:30:33 PMI'm definitely happier with a new personal best high score without a clear than a lower scoring clear, of course, but when I pull both together, I think that is the most satisfying experience these games can offer.
I think the times when I get the most satisfaction is when that happens too, but it's very rare, and the rest of the time I really enjoy just using any savestate at a hard pattern or hard place and doing it well while dancing to any music that I'm listening to at the same time :p That's when I have the most fun with those games.
Quote from: Ruldra on March 26, 2009, 05:27:18 PM
I'd rather have a huge list of game clears than an impressive score in one or two shmups. For me it's not about beating difficult games, it's about experiencing them. Every shmup plays differently, you come across different scoring systems, different attack patterns, levels, enemies, bosses...every game is an unique experience. Considering the sheer number of them out there, I feel I'd be missing a lot if I just stick to one game for years (I have a deep respect for people who can do that though, as they are the ones who pull off the most impressive scores).
What he said. I'm not going to put in 100+ hours to get close to a Western WR, but if I can get the 1cc ,then I know I've invested enough time into the game to experience 95% of it.
The extra 5% is not worth another 100 hours to me. I could use that on a new game. Time is finite, sod spending it all striving for a No Miss / No bomb run through a game.
It's not for everyone & it's netither right or wrong, but as always this is what suits me & my style of play.
I've never strived for perfection or to be number one at anything. being in the upper echelon of life is all I need ;) I aim to beat someone / something & never aim to high or low. That way I can get what I want & move on.
The clear was obviously put there for a reason... it is also one benchmark (the other score) of skill. And as for difficulty... uh... some things are harder for some people than others. I actually had a rough time getting used to MMP's later levels, b/c I'm not familiar w/ the style. It's all fine and dandy if you want to 2-ALL a really fucking hard game. I don't have the dexterity to stay with one game for that long. I believe it was discussed at one of the STGT's that the high scoring players were putting in 30+ hours on the game that week. I simply don't have that time, and never will. I'd rather enjoy the games I play, and for me, that generally entails his the clear on a credit.
QuoteThe clear was obviously put there for a reason... it is also one benchmark (the other score) of skill.
I have yet to play a Cave game that takes skill to just get the Clear on, excluding 2-ALL's and Mushi Ultra's of course. A 1cc is barely a start. After the 1cc I usually feel I've experienced about 20% of the game, the other 80% are a whole new experience when you start to learn the scoring mechanics imo.
Shooting my way through DOJ's first loop can't be compared to the feeling when you're chaining all the stages. The game gets at least twice as good this way.
Quote from: markedkiller78 on March 27, 2009, 10:38:17 AMbut if I can get the 1cc ,then I know I've invested enough time into the game to experience 95% of it.
The extra 5% is not worth another 100 hours to me.
It doesn't make sense to say you've experienced 95% of a game if you have just beaten it, unless you mean experienced as enjoyed like you'd enjoy a movie. In terms of skill, it's more like Plasmo said :
Quote from: Plasmo on March 27, 2009, 11:32:18 AM
After the 1cc I usually feel I've experienced about 20% of the game, the other 80% are a whole new experience when you start to learn the scoring mechanics imo.
Indeed most Caves don't take much skill to just 1CC, even if you're not very good you can get it done by memorizing the game well enough. If you have better skills, you'll manage a 1CC sooner, that is to say without memorizing as much. However some games will still require serious skills to 1CC even you have perfectly memorized the whole game, like Ultra or some 2-ALLs...
I see my self as being in the slightly above average bracket with shmups. To say that it requires no skill to 1cc a game may be true for you as an individual, but in comparission to all the people who play shmups this surely cannot be true?
If it is, then I guess i'm in the Beginer stage still.
My % could be way off, but I'm basing this on, Seeing all the levels, knowing the placement of all enemies, understanding the intermediate mechanics for scoring & clearing the game.
I personally don't thnink that 80% of the game is made up of maximizing score & squeezing everything out of the game. Exploiting bugs, knowing which shot results in max points etc all seem to be the intricate details of the game, for me this is a small part of it, hence the 5%.
If you look at professinal sportsmen you'll know that 0.0001% or so (total guess) actually make it to the top level. Does that mean the other 99.9999% of people playing the game are only experiencing 20% of it?
The upper 0.1% or so may get more & know more about a game than the rest, but do you honestly think that the details are the majority of a game? I'll bet the developers know less about the game than the WR score holders.
I guess it's all open to interpritation.
obviously we don't mean that only getting a WR rewards 80% and 0% for all the rest, it's more like if you can get a pretty good score, you're 50% into the game, then 85% if you can get a really good score, then 100% for WR...
Something like that. Of course it's only an image, enjoyment of a game's depth isn't really quantifiable.
I dunno, I think the only CAVE games that I know to be easily 1CCable without getting too deep into the game are Mushi Futari Black Label and Deathsmiles. Playing through either intelligently with ample use of bombs will eventually get you the clear.
DOJ took me awhile and by the end I knew most enemy placements in the game. Still, it's not like I can chain stage 4 and 5 because I know where the enemies are going to be necessarily.
My personal playing philosophy is generally to aim for a respectable score with the 1CC, and once I get that, move on to another game. Certain games that I've really fallen in love with like DOJ and Futari I'm sure I'll return to, but there's a whole slew of CAVE games (Guwange, Ketsui, Espgaludas, DDP DFK) that I've hardly touched and it's hard to justify ignoring those to see the 'other 80%' of a game I'm nonetheless pretty familiar with.
Quote from: Plasmo on March 27, 2009, 11:32:18 AM
I have yet to play a Cave game that takes skill to just get the Clear on, excluding 2-ALL's and Mushi Ultra's of course.
You've played Pink Sweets. Where's your 1CC if it "doesn't take skill"? ???
i'm sure if plasmo wanted to go for a low-score/low rank clear on PS he could do it ;)
i was searching shmups for oxtsu's post about ranking cave clears and came across this old thread..
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=4672&highlight=poll
=D
personally, i still think there's some debate as to whether a 1-ALL (which isn't displayed in-game as an ALL) actually constitutes a 1CC or not. certainly arcadia don't do separate tables for 1 loop play of DOJ, for example (i would actually find it interesting though! =D)
Quote from: jpj on March 27, 2009, 03:00:16 PM
i'm sure if plasmo wanted to go for a low-score/low rank clear on PS he could do it ;)
Coulda, woulda, shoulda. It still takes skill, and that's my point.
Quote from: Plasmo on March 27, 2009, 11:32:18 AMI have yet to play a Cave game that takes skill to just get the Clear on,
:whyioughtta:
Honestly I'm surprised to see all the disdain for the 1CC.
As was already said, we all have different ways of enjoying these games (and enjoying yourself is the main thing right? ;)), but a 1CC is definitely a benchmark of skill (and a laudable one imo).
Quote from: EOJYou've played Pink Sweets. Where's your 1CC if it "doesn't take skill"? Huh?
Looks like I forgot one for the exceptions list. ;) (it's not the typical Cave game anyway).
My point was just that a 1cc doesn't take too much skill. Of course it depends on the person playing, but I'm sure that with some dedication everyone could get every Cave Clear (no 2-all's, no Ultra's, no Raizing's) within 2-3 months maximum. Whereas playing for score opens whole new levels and I don't think everyone could achieve a 1bill DOJ score even if he has 1 year.
Quote from: Plasmo on March 27, 2009, 04:58:47 PM
but I'm sure that with some dedication everyone could get every Cave Clear (no 2-all's, no Ultra's, no Raizing's) within 2-3 months maximum.
I know a LOT of guys who have played games seriously for much longer than 2-3 months and still don't have any 1CCs (or maybe just one, in one of the easier games). A 1CC in most Cave games takes more skill than you're giving credit. You're better than most people at these types of games, so I can see how your judgment could be clouded here. It may not seem like much of a challenge to you, but to most people, it definitely is.
The most guys who complain about Cave games being too hard usually play 1-2 credits a day for a week and then stop playing the game at all, because it's "TOO difficult". That's why I put that "dedication" part there in my last post.
But then again I have to admit, I'm playing Shmups for years and maybe I'm completely wrong with my assumptions after all. I sure must sound like a dick then, sry. :-\
At this point in my life, I just don't have time to play like I used to. I get to play a few hours, once a week, max. If I clear a game, I usually put the pcb back on the shelf and move on to something else.
Quote from: Plasmo on March 27, 2009, 11:32:18 AM
I have yet to play a Cave game that takes skill to just get the Clear on
I should've mentioned I never don't play for score. Sorry for the double-negative.
And I'll also go on record saying that my first Cave 1CC was ESPGaluda, and it took a lot of work. Times have changed since then, but hey. There are plenty of people that, even given months, cannot 1CC the middle tier up....especially the ones that demand a high score to get the extends.
I tend to focus on score far too much, leading to terrible survival rates. This means I play the early levels so often that I get bored with them and drift off to another game. With more focus on a single game, I'm sure I'd do better, but still don't have any 1ccs yet. Got a pretty kickin' Bakraid score I'm working on, and one of these runs will get the clear soon. (Normal mode maybe isn't the full 1cc, given that there's Advanced)
As PROM tends to put it often; half of the scoring improvements you could make tend to be boring. Getting that 1CC is definitely more possible - and to some, more rewarding/wanted - than beating the world record.
However, I also never don't play for score. I see no reason to do otherwise; beat the game and get a decent score? Sounds great.
I've heard some say that, outside of Subterranean Animism, that clearing a Lunatic mode of a Windows Touhou game was easier than clearing the first loop of the original DoDonPachi. I'm... not seeing it, but I don't play more of either game.
Quote from: GaijinPunch on March 29, 2009, 01:24:34 AM
I should've mentioned I never don't play for score. Sorry for the double-negative.
Quote from: lgb on March 31, 2009, 01:11:14 PM
However, I also never don't play for score.
You've set a new precident here GP. Never not playing for socre is what you do best :righton:
WE NEVER DON'T PLAY FOR SCORE !
QuoteYou've set a new precident
I'm a trend setter.
The whole "play for score" thing is a bit weird. What are the criteria for NOT 'playing for score'? If you play the game, blow through it, and get a 1CC early on, is that not playing for score, or is that playing for score but not yet knowing how to score well yet?
I guess if you consciously avoid scoring, don't pick up scoring items, and use every last one of your bombs, then that could be considered "not playing for score". Or playing through a Donpachi game to get a 1CC, without bothering to learn to chain each stage first (I think just about everyone has tried this). Otherwise, if you're not doing any of those things, then you're playing for score.
Just not making particular efforts to take advantage of the scoring system,
or playing with just the clear or longest survival time in mind
is "not playing for score" I guess.
Well, at first when you get to know a game you won't try to score well at it but just get a hang of the concepts and try to survive and clear it. I recall some "pros" said they did that when they began playing a new game, in interviews. So before starting to play for score you always don't play for score :p
Quote from: EOJ on April 04, 2009, 02:17:33 AMThe whole "play for score" thing is a bit weird. What are the criteria for NOT 'playing for score'? If you play the game, blow through it, and get a 1CC early on, is that not playing for score, or is that playing for score but not yet knowing how to score well yet?
I guess if you consciously avoid scoring, don't pick up scoring items, and use every last one of your bombs, then that could be considered "not playing for score". Or playing through a Donpachi game to get a 1CC, without bothering to learn to chain each stage first (I think just about everyone has tried this). Otherwise, if you're not doing any of those things, then you're playing for score.
I will agree.
I hear there are those who actually do this, or at least talk about it; sometimes it shows, sometimes it doesn't. Score threads for games in the Touhou Project are pretty good indicators of this, though. In fact, I personally will not move up difficulty levels unless I'm satisfied with my score on a lower one; I "master" that level, and also prepare myself for a higher difficulty later. But maybe I'm being dense about that...
Personally, I get a lot more enjoyment out of a game if I go for a 1cc via any means, then go back and re-work it for score. My first cave 1-all was Dodonpachi and damn, I remember how good that felt (depite being one of the easiest cave 1-alls), and it was even better knowing that I could go back and improve it. On the contrary I've been learning Daioujou stage by stage learning how to chain it, so my first 1cc will most likely be a nice big score (still learning 4 and 5, I don't think I'll ever chain the laser cannon in 4). But really, I'm thinking about saying screw it, going for a 1-all then going back to learn the 4/5 chains, I think I'd enjoy it more that way. And in the end, it's just a video game, whatever gives you the most enjoyment is definitely what you should do.
Quote from: necpmf on April 13, 2009, 12:21:37 PM
And in the end, it's just a video game, whatever gives you the most enjoyment is definitely what you should do.
I could not agree more
Quote from: EOJ on April 04, 2009, 02:17:33 AM
The whole "play for score" thing is a bit weird. What are the criteria for NOT 'playing for score'? If you play the game, blow through it, and get a 1CC early on, is that not playing for score, or is that playing for score but not yet knowing how to score well yet?
I guess if you consciously avoid scoring, don't pick up scoring items, and use every last one of your bombs, then that could be considered "not playing for score". Or playing through a Donpachi game to get a 1CC, without bothering to learn to chain each stage first (I think just about everyone has tried this). Otherwise, if you're not doing any of those things, then you're playing for score.
there was a discussion about going for a quick and dirty 1-ALL on doj a while back. play A-S and bomb any time you're in trouble, wont be hard
Quote from: jpj on April 13, 2009, 01:55:24 PM
play A-S and bomb any time you're in trouble, wont be hard
My DOJ 1cc took me incredibly long and in the end I finished it with 203 million. There are few CAVE games that can be finished easier without playing for score than with some tactics involved, that's at least what I experienced. In fact I think chaining through stage 2 of DOJ is easier than just surviving when it comes to skill. Chaining gives you some kind of rhythm, in any game, and that again provides confidence (->skill).
Quote from: jpj on April 13, 2009, 01:55:24 PM
there was a discussion about going for a quick and dirty 1-ALL on doj a while back. play A-S and bomb any time you're in trouble, wont be hard
I actually gave that a try once not too long ago, and will probably never pick shot ever again. Wasn't fun at all due to being practically immobilized during laser. Certain parts where I just laser through are completely changed and it throws me off a bunch and just frustrates me. IMO shot type is pretty terrible in DOJ, especially compared to DDP where you can pick C-S and just kinda blow your way through everything with minimal movement/strategy.
Also, reading back on my previous post, I meant the 1-up cannon, not the laser cannon, haha. It doesn't feel possible, at all, so I've pretty much given up on that (along with the st 3 midboss which also seems to be impossible, but I gave up on that like the first time I ever tried it.).
Quote from: EOJ on April 04, 2009, 02:17:33 AM
The whole "play for score" thing is a bit weird. What are the criteria for NOT 'playing for score'? If you play the game, blow through it, and get a 1CC early on, is that not playing for score, or is that playing for score but not yet knowing how to score well yet?
Taking another look at this, I'd have to say the latter.
afaik, most older games from the 70s to the early 1980s don't have "stages" in the sense that you technically "win" after you beat them, even if the game plays over or not. Here, there's nothing else
but play for score... and that would be how it started, right?
Then again, that would mean "playing for score" is pretty close to "playing for survival"... which we know does not apply to many modern games with so-called "scoring systems".
Again, it becomes apparent that the genre changed completely at some point, and it seems somewhere around the very later 80s and early 90s, probably farther (mid 90s, maybe?).