Opinions: vanilla DS vs MBL?

[skykid]

Didn't have much luck with this elsewhere, was wondering if anyone here could illustrate their preferences between the two versions. Just curious which you guys consider superior?

Many thanks! 

[cstarflare]

MBL is fantastic. Sakura and the Ice Palace are fantastic additions, and even level 999 is a fun diversion.

Never got into vanilla, but I was distracted by MBL and 1.1

[Jockel]

Was there any Black Label ever that wasn't superior?

[skykid]

Was there any Black Label ever that wasn't superior?

Futari?

[EOJ]

The only Black Label that I've played that I find to be truly better than the original is Dodonpachi Daioujou BL. Haven't played Daifukkatsu BL yet.

[ave]

I am not very deep in the Black Label versions since I've never owned any of them, but whenever I had the chance to play Ibara Kuro, Futari BL or DOJ BL (each for a couple of hours total, I guess) they seemed much more fun to me than the normal versions.

Ibara Kuro for the motivating scratch/rank feature, Futari BL for... well, easier & it feels better somehow . I haven't played the regular Futari very much so I can't really comment on that one, but then again DOJ BL is better for obvious reasons (more hypers = more fun!).

[EOJ]

well, easier & it feels better somehow .

All BLs are easier to 1CC than their original counterparts. Lots of people seem to think that makes the games 'better'. I am not one of these people.

Overall, the SH3 BLs are 'different' and 'fun' but not 'better', IMO. But, there is always Daifukkatsu BL, which still has the potential to be the exception to the rule for me.

[adverse]

I'm no good at Deathsmiles, but I prefer regular DS to MBL due to the penalty to your + counter when dying in MBL.  Regular DS is more straightforward, and it's easier to reach fever really quick.

Considering the Black Labels as a whole (bold are winners):

Dodonpachi Daioujou vs. Dodonpachi Daioujou Black Label = BL
Ibara vs. Ibara Black Label = BL
Mushihimesama Futari 1.5 vs. Mushihimesama Futari Black Label = 1.5
EspGaluda II vs. EspGaluda II Black Label = BL (Not a fan of how bullets spawn in zesshikai for GII regular)
Deathsmiles vs. Deathsmiles Mega Black Label = Vanilla
Dodonpachi Daifukkatsu 1.5 vs. Dodonpachi Daifukkatsu Black Label = 1.5 (This is tight, but unfortunately scoring is just too unbalanced in BL and Strong mode too problematic to edge over 1.5)

[adverse]

In the 360 Famitsu interview this month, Ikeda stated flatly that they won't do a Black Label for DS2.  I think they're pretty done with it.

[GaijinPunch]

I found DS MBL harder than the original mainly b/c
1: I play for score, and that means Rank 999
2: I haven't played it that much
3: Follet feels weird.  So, I had to use Sakyura which comes in handy for the Ice Palace. 

It's not "a breeze" compared to vanilla like the others.

DOJ BL has a more rounded rank system than white, which generally means an easier 1st loop but it is so subtle it's almost not worth mentioning.

Futari 1.5 never clicked with me, and I found God to be a huge improvement.  If you don't like shitloads of bulles it's probably not going to appeal to you.

[JOW]

I've seen the same question posted somewhere before (can't remember if it was on here or shmups) but the response was a heated discussion that was split right down the middle.

It's probably because the fairly subtle changes in the scoring mechanic make you approach the game in a completely different way - at least for me anyway.
As a fairly inexperienced Cave play, I tend to play MBL in a more intense but conservative way, ensuring I'm always guarding my lives, while in vanilla I just let it all hang out.

One of the criticisms levelled at MBL is the heavy cost of losing a life; it's a fair comment but the cost of using a bomb is minimal so it's mitigated somewhat.

If I had to make a choice (if I was choosing between the PCBs say) I would go for vanilla - but the absense of the Ice Palace makes it a close call.

[skykid]

Brilliant, all really helpful stuff. Adverse, thanks for going the whole hog there, interesting to see your preferences. I didn't realise the punishment for death in MBL was so punishing on the score, I'll need to re-read the strats on these.

I've played MBL before and remember enjoying it, but it was so brief I wasn't playing for score (which is how I normally roll). I remember thinking Ice Palace was a fantastic stage too. But not dying over the course of a 1cc would be a momentous challenge.

Any more input certainly welcome, thanks again. 

[antares]

I prefer regular DS over MBL for the reasons that have already been mentioned.

First the harsh punishment for dying is something I don't like in any shmup.
Second the Ice Palace is totally overpowered. My highest score in MBL was around 2 bil and I got over 1 bil of it in the Ice Palace and 1 bil combined in the other 7 stages.

[zlk]

I prefer MBL over regualr DS.  Unless you an ultra-serious player, you probably won't notice that much difference between the games.  MBL has 999 rank, an extra character and an extra stage to play around with.  Because of those "extras," if I only could buy one version I would buy MBL. 

[EOJ]

Unless you an ultra-serious player, you probably won't notice that much difference between the games. 

Scoring in DS and DSMBL is quite different. I think DS scoring is much more enjoyable. High level DSMBL scoring requires close proximity play (much like Futari BL).

[brentsg]

I'm generally just playing not-so-serious and for fun rather than uber scores. 

With DS I prefer MBL due to the additional character, 999, and the extra stage. 

With Futari I prefer the pacing of BL over 1.5 and I find Ultra to be a generally useless mode for me.

With Ibara I prefer BL because it's less brutal than normal Ibara and I don't have to fuss with vanilla's weapon pick-up mechanism.  Then when I have a stage mastered, BL's added scoring mechanism is a lot of fun (risk vs. reward).

I like DFK BL better due to the bullet canceling feature the bees provide.  It's just so damn rewarding.

I haven't put any time into DOJ or DOJBL.

[markedkiller78]

I think vanilla DS is more fun, but the ice palace is my favourite level in any cave game, so BL edges it.

[Monouchi]

I like the colors in Vanilla more.
But BL ice palace is a challenge.



(I also like the pacing better in Futari BL.)

[Shady994]

I like the scoring mechanic better in vanilla, but the addition of Sakura and the Ice Palace stage make MBL worth considering. It is about 2x the price though.

[skykid]

Unless you an ultra-serious player, you probably won't notice that much difference between the games. 

Scoring in DS and DSMBL is quite different. I think DS scoring is much more enjoyable. High level DSMBL scoring requires close proximity play (much like Futari BL).

I'm a bit confused by proximity play in Vanilla DS - do you mean it's okay to hang back? The problem is there isn't much 'suck' on the crowns at a distance. But then I've seen the superplay DVD and the guy lets everything break into skulls. I tried this and can't see any positive effect on my score. 

[EOJ]

In Vanilla DS you need to let everything break into skulls in Power Up mode, this increases your score considerably. In Normal mode, you do the opposite (try and absorb large crowns).

[Ravid]

Not sure what you mean about DSMBL EOJ, since to score highly in that you need to hang back and let everything break into skulls whether in normal or power up mode.

[EOJ]

You need to get up close before or just as enemies (not all of them, but certain ones) get on screen to leech skulls off them in many parts of the first 6 stages for an optimal score. Doing this along with all the other stuff enables you to get 4+bil at the end of the first six stages - without this close proximity play your score won't come close. You also have to get up close to the bosses to raise your item counter, another element crucial for a top score.

[skykid]

In Vanilla DS you need to let everything break into skulls in Power Up mode, this increases your score considerably. In Normal mode, you do the opposite (try and absorb large crowns).

Ah, I see! Thanks for the tip, that's useful. Are you guys all experts at the recharging and stuff? I've tried emulating the superplay DVD without much luck, the stage path feels uncomfortable (I like starting out 1-2 and then 2-3 for some reason - maybe because I like the early extend.)
The only place I've managed a near successful recharge is on 2-1 at the big house at the end - but am I right in thinking that the skulls start to lose their value very quickly  after they hit the ground?

[Ravid]

Does proximity make that much of a difference w.r.t. leeching skulls? The only effect I can think of is the reduced time it takes newly fired option shots to travel the screen to reach your target. But then of course, you necessarily end up absorbing any crowns you generate before they break up.

Regardless, I managed 2bil (admittedly nowhere near the world-class scores you're referring to) in the first 6 stages playing with a relatively sedate hang-around-near-the-back playing style iirc; from that experience I would not describe the DSMBL play-style as particularly aggressive, except, as you say, at the bosses. The bits I mainly remember about the game are sitting at the left side of the screen on the ice palace wiggling the stick to guide Windia's option shots up and down and watching cascades of gold crowns breaking into skulls and flying towards me.

[EOJ]

Yes, you have to get up close to the enemies to leech the skulls. Really have to start shooting them before they appear as you start leeching skulls before they appear. These aren't breakable skulls (you do it before your counter is at 100K), that's why you can get up close. And yes, as I said it is for "high level" play, i.e. people getting 9-12+bil scores.

Basically this technique enables you to get 100K on the counter after a few stages, allowing you to score way more with the full 100K before going to the EX stages (about double the score than if you didn't do this).

Its the same deal with Futari BL Original - those who effectively use the proximity play there get 2~3+bil scores. Those who don't use it effectively don't get much past 1bil.

[Ravid]

I've never played Futari BL, so I can't comment on that point. I would like to clarify that you don't have to point-blank to leech skulls off enemies as they emerge onto the screen, at least with Windia; I used this technique all the time at the back end of the screen. What may be true is that it is more effective at close range.

My point about the crowns breaking up was that when you inevitably destroy the enemies, they release crowns that you would then not be able to allow to break up (which would be especially serious in power-up mode with maxed counter). Also, at level 999, in power-up mode, while the counter is still above 500, the leeching does produce crown tiaras which can break up if allowed to fall to the ground.

For the record, I should say that the best I ever did was to get 100k early in the Volcano stage, which I did last.

[EOJ]

For the record, I should say that the best I ever did was to get 100k early in the Volcano stage, which I did last.

Yeah, with this technique players get 100K by the end of the 3rd stage (forest at 999), then use the full 100K to score on the last 3 (Graveyard, Halloween Town, and Volcano, in the vid I've seen).

[Ravid]

Well I'll take your word for it, since I don't have the game available to check and to be honest, it's been long enough since I've played it that my memory of the replays I've seen is a little hazy.

Anyway, for those who would be satisfied with scores under 6 billion, I would say that close proximity play is far from the most significant aspect of the DSMBL experience. I personally found it to be more enjoyable than vanilla, mainly due to the fact that: i) you get powerups more frequently; ii) recharging is easy; iii) ice palace + level 999. Also, I now recall that I actually maxed out my counter half-way through the forest (stage 5) .

[EOJ]

Anyway, for those who would be satisfied with scores under 6 billion, I would say that close proximity play is far from the most significant aspect of the DSMBL experience.

This point was never in dispute. Personally I'm never satisfied in any game if I can't get over half the WR.