Mushihime-sama Cave Matsuri Ver 1.5 PCB

[ProMeTheus]

I see what you're trying to say but you could hardly say those games are "very very hard from start to finish".

It's true some scoring mechanics can make a game difficult even if it's quite manageable even when unknown ; but we're not reaching the same levels of difficulty. I can't think of anything as hard as Mushihimesama Futari Ultra except DOJ's last stages on max rank, which are also unplayable until memorized.

I don't understand what you mean with memorization not dropping challenge level for some games. If you are a great player, it is still impossible to 1CC Ketsui on your first credits if you have never played it before, and then it becomes kinda easy to no miss no bomb the first loop once you have precisely memorized it. Sure, if you optimize your scoring you can make it harder, but in the end the point still is to no miss no bomb it kinda consistently, so obviously the level of challenge has dropped enormously compared to playing without memorization. Most of the Cave games that loop offer great difficulty only in the last few stages and true last boss, and critically punish a miss or bomb in first loop.

I'm sure the same goes with all games. Of course it will still be challenging to get a perfect run up to the last levels, but the game will hardly stay very hard from start to finish once you have memorized it well. Except for games that are unplayable without memorization from the very 1st stage.

[TimingTripod40]

Just out of curiosity why don't you play the game more? I think you could get some pretty sweet scores man.

[ProMeTheus]

This is getting double off topic !
DOJ ? Will play again later, just not that much time lately, been doing other stuff, lazy to learn new stages, so I just play 1-4/1-5 when I have a few minutes, getting consistent. I'm in no rush ! Maybe I'll start learning second loop in August/September. Thanks for your encouragements.

Back on topic though, I second EOJ when he said :

This has the potential to be the coolest game ever. I always loved the look and sound of Mushi, but imagine being able to play it with a nice new scoring system that doesn't kill your fingers or require you to wire some elaborate rapid fire setup.

Cause I was thinking exactly the same. Would be cool to try this.

[moozooh]

It's true some scoring mechanics can make a game difficult even if it's quite manageable even when unknown ; but we're not reaching the same levels of difficulty. I can't think of anything as hard as Mushihimesama Futari Ultra except DOJ's last stages on max rank, which are also unplayable until memorized.

It's hard to measure or even appreciate the difference between the "hardcoded" difficulty of a largely rigid scoring system like Futari Ultra's (where simply not ever dying until Larsa is going to bring you around 3 billion or even more) compared to manually added difficulty from scoring-induced risk-taking. If we take it ? just hypothetically, bear with me ? that in Ultra's case the success in dealing with certain parts of the game depends on 50% memorizing the safest route/50% dodging your way through, and it doesn't fluctuate much in that case, in scalable scoring systems it starts with around 80-90% memorization/10-20% dodging and gradually moves to around 10-20%/80-90% because safety becomes progressively counterproductive (and, consequently, additional risk taking is required for score increases). In that way, stage 1 in 1.5 Ultra will become relatively easier the better you play, and will never rise above a certain threshold regardless of score, while stage 1 in BL Original will become relatively harder the better you play, even if the latter is still lower on the absolute difficulty scale, and will keep getting harder as long as you're doing better. It's also why you occasionally see even the hardest games no-miss/no-bombed until final bosses where the main problems usually begin: their difficulty maxes out at a certain point and only goes down from there on.

I don't understand what you mean with memorization not dropping challenge level for some games. If you are a great player, it is still impossible to 1CC Ketsui on your first credits if you have never played it before, and then it becomes kinda easy to no miss no bomb the first loop once you have precisely memorized it. I'm sure the same goes with all games. Of course it will still be challenging to get a perfect run up to the last levels, but the game will hardly stay very hard from start to finish.

I mean that with a scalable scoring system the game's difficulty rises proportionally to your skill level, so memorizing the exact same strategy will not bring an increase in score because in order to increase your score you have to take more risk, thus using a different strategy, and changing it all the time to accomodate for the increase in your skill level.

As for staying hard from start to finish, I can assure you that for players who can clear Futari Ultra the first couple stages aren't hard, either. I myself can do better in those than in later stages as well. It's normal for games to have difficulty curve, you aren't getting around that no matter what the scoring system is.

(I hope this is cut into a separate topic because it's an interesting subject worthy of discussion.)

[ProMeTheus]

I like thinking about and discussing shmup theory but I think it can't be valid or clear unless we use extremely precise examples and terms ; I don't understand exactly what your memorization/dodging ratio represents.

I see that you're saying how some games have scoring systems that allow a lot of room for optimization, thus making the game harder and harder as you get better. But if you stick to one specific strategy, refining it will make it easier and easier via memorization which is always a part of shmup. And one day you will get to the max optimization and then keep refining that, also making your stage easier and easier. If you refuse to stick to a strategy for an extended period of time you will never be consistent unless it's way too easy for you.

This is what I did with DOJ : I thought "ok let's look at crazy HFD. Mmmh, looks hard but maybe I can do it in first loop". So instead of starting with any other kind of less optimized route, I just learned his max routes right away. And it worked because my skill was already enough. The optimized first stages are not nearly as hard as a Futari Ultra route, by the way. Now I haven't optimized exactly as much as HFD did, but if I kept changing routes to get to his optimization level, I would never be able to stick to a very precisely memorized route, which is KEY to success in shmups. If I want a little more optimization, I just have to modify my memory using HFD's video and repeat that new section as many times as it takes. But in the end, there is a maximum difficulty, and in the end, memorization is still as critical. So I stuck to a chosen, satisfying route and memorized it super well while getting those skills up too.

I see memorization as an inherent flaw of shmups. It is quite alright though, like I said in my guide I think it is very similar to learning how to play a song, and it is extremely good practice for your memory.

I'll use my music analogy again right now :

Futari Ultra is a song that you can only play one way, as it doesn't sound right at all otherwise. The way you have to play it is extremely hard.
On the other hand, Ketsui can be played many different ways, sounding better if you play it in a more difficult way. The easiest version is quite easy, the hardest version is very hard, but whichever version you pick, practice makes perfect ! (= practicing and memorizing any of those version makes it easier and easier)
And the first half of its hardest version isn't quite as hard as the first half of Futari Ultra's only version.

[Sapz]

I'd argue that there's often another element to this - I think Ketsui's Ura loop is significantly more difficult than Futari Ultra (pre-Larsa), largely because it can't be completely memorized. It is of course possible to plan a 'general' route, but there are lots of sections where you'll largely have to invent a route through the bullets on the spot due to the inherent randomness of the suicide bullets - you can see this in SPS's superplay on YouTube. You'll still get better at it via practicing, but it's not always something you can plan completely for, and managing this consistently while also scoring well is incredibly difficult. I guess using your analogy it'd be the seperate skill of being able to come up with a very technical, improvised solo in the middle of a song.

[ProMeTheus]

You just made me want to play Ketsui Ura :p

[Kaneda]

I played this yesterday and it gets a thumbs up from me. Only tried Original and thought it was ok on the regular setting (pretty much the same thing as before) but its a lot of fun on MAX. Felt like Futari Black Label, only harder.

A port would be nice.

[EOJ]

For those wondering about scoring in this game, ABI (Futari 1.5 Original mode WR holder) has started playing this at the arcade and he seems to love it. He is playing Original MAX mode, and so far has 400million. He says he's working on stage patterns that he thinks will bring his score to around 1 billion:

http://abi123.blog110.fc2.com/blog-entry-322.html#cm

[Sapz]

Interesting stuff! Hoping for a port of this even more now, ABI's XBL Futari Original replay is a huge inspiration/help for my attempts at the game.

[TimingTripod40]

Now if only they'd announce a console port.

[SuperPang]

Any decent scoring vids floating around yet? I am suck.
It's refreshing to be playing a good old fashioned IKD danmaku again though

[eckart]

SuperPang, that sounds good.

-Today i got the poster. I was a bit disapointed seeing the man at the office comes with that long tube package.
Anyway, he was cool and draw 10 dollars on a paper and give it to me, so i didn`t have to pay any taxes for it.

[EOJ]

Every time I see that I first think it's a mushihimetama poster rather than a mushihimesama poster!

[moozooh]

Every time I see that I first think, "man, that pose looks so uncomfortable, why is she forcing herself?"

[eckart]

Her left arm looks goofy. I honestly not sure if i would frame it.
The very first ms flyer artwork looks best, imo.

[pestilence]

I really want to see a play-through vid of this. Doesn't have to be high scoring, just want to see the changes and here the new music.

[eckart]

Got my copy a view days ago. Thanks Sophia.Corp for this great support! 
Realy love this version. For me it is more a 6 in 1. Each mode plays different imo.

Guess you have to use the small lazers to bump up the counter on bigger enemies and than use the a button also.
Just finished the scorpion at level 2 with a 400.000 counter ( normal maniac mode ). Stayed left with one small lazer hitting the head of this thing.

Original max is great, but those yellow bugs in level 3 gets me crazy. Come not much over a 25.000 conter.
The bullet glow effect is realy nice.

If this is cave last pcb than it is 10 imo. But lets hope more pcbs will follow and we will get a 360 port soon!

- The pcb i got was a little used, btw. I mean the jamma connector was not new...
Anybody had the same luck?

[drboom]

Looks like 5 minutes and change from the Matsuri version are here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWTL2yCerdc

I'm still pretty excited by this - I pretty much agree with EOJ's stattement of the scoring mechanic change being welcome. I dug this game when I owned it, would love to revisit it.

[rtw]

Calling Mushi 1.5 PCB Owners

Could one of you be so kind to fire up your PCB, enter SETUP and goto the MEMORY TEST

The memory test will show two entries with a number afterwards:

CODE AREA
FREE AREA

Could you note down the numbers after each entry and post them here please ?

[EOJ]

ABI says he's buying the game from the Cave shop later this month. He's been working on Original mode in the arcades, but wants to focus more time with it. He said he'll be making some videos of it, which, I believe, will be the first videos of the game with good scoring techniques.

Who is ABI? He holds the world record in Mushihimesama Futari 1.5 Original mode (with both Palm and Reco), as well as excellent scores in many other games.

[Special World]

Awesome.

But it will just make me more jealous :\

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

Edit: I have swapped out videos and added more and I don't want to keep updating the post so just use my channel:
http://www.youtube.com/cavepcb


This is my "first impression" review. Don't ask me about scoring, I just got the board so you would be better off hearing about them from people who have had the board longer than me (like the thread on shmups) or waiting for ABI's demonstration.

Attract Mode:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3OBULHRxsQ

First off it has definitely surpassed my expectations in regards to fun (which were high) and is currently my favorite game. I can't think of another game that has as good of difficulty level jumps. It has everything from "too easy" to "I'll never beat it" in very differing steps. The 6 modes are each very different from the last.

Normal Original
Normal Original mode is basically too easy to 1CC. It is easier than Original mode on the original Mushihimesama, despite having more going on. It seems pretty much like a beginner mode for people who have never played the original release or for people who just sucked at it, although I'm sure getting the top world high score in this mode is as much of a challenge as anything else. I haven't played it for score yet. I got the 1CC my first try (although I have the original Mushihimesama board and this mode doesn't require much adjustment).

Original Mode 1CC:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2L08NS9fjcc

Original Max
Original Max is much harder and is super intense. One thing about the Max modes, describing them as "having the difficulty raised" doesn't seem accurate. It's more like they had the excitement raised and they also happen to be more difficult. It's awesome, much more fun than regular Original mode in the original or matsuri boards. It feels like you shot up a gallon of adrenaline like playing Ketsui, but it's not nearly as difficult as Ketsui. I've gotten to the final boss in 1 credit on the first day playing, and I'm confident I will get the 1CC somewhat soon. It's intense though to the point where even with a lot of practice, I don't think I'll get to the point where I 1CC it every time I play. The difficulty is high enough to where I will want to play this mode over a long period of time for sure.

Stages 1-5 on Original Max:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=De2o2UJKcE0

Normal Maniac
Normal Maniac is again easier than Maniac on the original Mushihimesama which is probably contrary to what you would expect. It seems a tad slower overall, and because of the increase in enemies and bullets on screen, it's in slowdown mode way more often than on the original release. In fact it seems like it was programmed to slow down quicker and more often than the original game regardless of added enemies. So even though there is more to dodge, it's often easier, sort of like going from Futari 1.5 to Black Label. Also the bullet patterns, especially on the later levels, are seemingly tweaked to where even though there are more, you naturally dodge them easier if you have your skills somewhat down. Someone who has gotten the 1CC on the original Mushi in Original or Maniac might very well get the 1CC on them in this version their first try, but they will have a great time doing it, and of course playing for score is a whole different subject. Or, at least, that goes for Original mode and Maniac probably wouldn't take them more than a few days to pull one.

Normal Maniac 1CC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41-Nz5mt_6w

Maniac Max
Maniac Max is so fun that I'm not sure how to describe it. It's hard as hell to the point where it will be a long time before I 1CC it, but it's so fun that I don't mind sucking at it. It really delivers. It's like any limitation that was there before has been removed and you just get flooded with pure awesome. Instead of tweaking out things a little here and there, it sort of kicks them down and laughs.

Stages 1-3 on Maniac Max:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMC3LKbnlgw

Basically the difficulty and patterns in normal Original and Maniac modes in the matsuri board vs. original are like when you went from Futari 1.5 to Black Label, but the Max modes are something totally new. They feel closer to completely new games than a tweak, and they get the adrenaline gushing quickly and insanely.

I think people who liked the original board will love this one and people who found the original game boring might feel the same about the normal modes here but will think differently about the Max modes.

The regular modes seem sort of slow and easy after you have gotten used to the Max ones. If you want to get good at a regular mode, play the Max version for a while first to get your nerves in order and then you will just dominate the hell out of the normal modes like they are a joke. At least the Original mode will seem that way, Maniac...somewhat that way.

Ultra Modes
Normal Ultra I just gave a quick try to. It seems maybe slightly easier than it was on the original Mushi game, don't know, but it's still too much for me. It seems like there are so many bullets that I would need to memorize an exact path instead of practice dodging skills, if that makes any sense, and it just doesn't appeal to me that much. Ultra Max is way more playable, strangely, because if you use the wide shot your fire from the very beginning takes up so much of the screen and there is lots of slowdown, it's actually not as crazy as I had imagined to jump into. It's certainly a less scary jump than regular Ultra modes or even God mode on Futari Black Label. Pretty cool.

[Special World]

Thanks for the uploads, man!

Unless this never gets ported. In which case fuck you, and fuck the world

I would drop the cash for this in a second if I had it to spend. Looks absolutely beautiful.

[Monouchi]

Thanks MMS for the writeup. 

I also loved playing this game.
If I dont hear about a port soon, then Im gonna go out and hunt the PCB.

[rtw]

Thanks for the write up Muchi Muchi Spork 

[Animaitor]

Thanks MMS, the quality of your videos are impressive!! Enjoy the game.

[Shalashaska]

I'm not the biggest fan of the original Mushi but this looks really fun. Thanks for the video uploads!

[Special World]

Can anybody explain in any amount of detail what the scoring in this game is like? Does it differ drastically between modes? All I'm getting is that it's like Futari BL Original, with gem overloads occurring after 9999 and from point blank shots, but I don't know how much more there is to it than that. Cave usually makes different difficulties score differently, so I'm just assuming there's substantial Normal/Maniac/Ultra/Min/Max differences.

Futari BL Original is amazing, and I'd be perfectly happy seeing a remix of the first Mushi with BL scoring and tons of different difficulty modes, but I'd be surprised if there wasn't more to it than that.

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

Check around this thread:
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=36751&start=210

For posts by sven666 and genevois. One thing I've noticed out of "natural" playing is that you naturally score highest with wide shot and the 1CCs are easiest with the medium shot.