Ketsui and DDP DOJ BL ports [JP X360]

[zap]

I tried both games today, and they really look crap, unfortunately :/
I must admit I haven't played DOJ BL before, but Piper seemed really easy. The bullet-canceling mode... first thing that came to my mind was the colors 

[GaijinPunch]

That good, huh?  Figures.
How was Ketsui?  Is the frame rate as bad as it looks in the video?

[CHR_AeON]

Another Ketsui video, unfortunately you really don't see that much:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSxyGmBj3gM

[EOJ]

Thanks for the vid. One thing I notice is the total lack of slowdown. Granted there isn't much slowdown at all in the first stage on the PCB, but on the boss, when you destroy the side parts, there is some slowdown in the PCB, and there was nothing in this version. If they didn't emulate any slowdown in the game, this will suck ass. There's a good deal of slowdown in Stage 5, and the stage 3 boss (among other places). If this isn't accurate, I won't be playing it.

[jpj]

the slowdown wont be perfect - i could've told you that when the ports were announced 

[EOJ]

Well there's a difference between "not perfect" and "totally missing". I'm hoping for the former! We don't need another disaster like the Ibara port.

I'm more worried about the Deathsmiles port though. I can't see them coming even close to getting the slowdown right on that, and that will really break that game.

[jpj]

i know what you're saying.  actually, i hope there's tons of extra slowdown in the black pachi port, cos i could do with it 

[GaijinPunch]

Obviously there's going to be zero slowdown unless it's emulated.  The good news is that there's really not that much in either of these games (compared to the ones of late).  At least in the first loops.  Simply slow the frame rate down in relation to the number of on screen sprites.  The only question is getting the ratio right.  If Mihara was indeed right, and DOJ's slow down is entirely in the software, then anyone w/ the source should be able to figure it out with rather simple math. 

As w/ EOJ, I'm far more concerned w/ the Death Smiles port. 

[EOJ]

Interview about Ketsui X w/ 5pb done by JAPJAC:

http://www.japjac.proboards58.com/index.cgi?board=share&action=display&thread=193

Much to my horror, the 5pb guy says all the slowdown will be eliminated and he thinks this (and the other modifications they're doing) will make it "better than the PCB". Fucking moron. Have fun on the second loop with no slowdown. Or even 1-5 for that matter.

It is a decidedly disturbing mindset to think the removal of slowdown equates to "improving the port". This is the same mindset Treasure had with Ikaruga GC, and perhaps why there's no slowdown in Ibara PS2. If this is the fate of Deathsmiles X360 and future X360 ports, we're all doomed.

Anyway Ketsui X is due out in Winter 2009, apparently. Also confirmed to be region locked, and no plans to localize it in other markets because "they're not ready for such games".

[charlienash87]

I hope he gets hit by a truck that had its brakes cut, that'll show him no slow down

[Kaneda]

Judging by his positive reaction to the no-slowdown, japjac is equally clueless. But we don't all play for high scores so to each his own, but it's bad news for those of us that do.

And Winter 2009? Why on earth would it take them over a year to fuck up this port?

[battle gregor]

japjac has always hated any slowdown in games.. the reason he likes ketsui more than other cave games is due to the fact it has less slowdown than other cave games... i always thought it weird that he would slag off excellent games just because of a bit of slowdown 

[adverse]

If this japjac guy is as clueless as you're saying, it's possible that what he wrote there is a mistranslation.

"The original PCB is nigh on perfect as a serious up screen shoot `em-up in my opinion apart from the occasional annoying slowdown and graphic corruption.  Are you attempting to eliminate these flaws for the consumer release?"

5pb: "Yes we are!

The 5pb guy could have been responding more to the graphic corruption aspect for instance.  I don't see this as a guarantee that there will be no slowdown. 

[jpj]

japjac always seemed like a sound geezer to me 

[battle gregor]

i'm sure he is sound enough guy but far from the self proclaimed expert he makes himself out to be. more of a collector than a player methinks. he even thinks kyuinn is good 

[EOJ]

If this japjac guy is as clueless as you're saying, it's possible that what he wrote there is a mistranslation.

"The original PCB is nigh on perfect as a serious up screen shoot `em-up in my opinion apart from the occasional annoying slowdown and graphic corruption.  Are you attempting to eliminate these flaws for the consumer release?"

5pb: "Yes we are!

The 5pb guy could have been responding more to the graphic corruption aspect for instance.  I don't see this as a guarantee that there will be no slowdown. 

Maybe, but I doubt it. Like I said the slowdown from the stage 1 boss was already missing in the demo, which is indicative of the more obvious interpretation of what the 5pb guy said.

[SharkSkin-Man]

This reminds me of something I've been wanting to know for certain for ages now.

Is Cave slowdown all done in software? Someone tried to convince me of this years ago, that all the slowdown is actually designed and none of it is due to the hardware just chugging away, struggling with all the shit on screen. Now to be honest, I reckon that's nonsense because from what I can see some of the time slowdown is also accompanied by other stuff too like garbled graphics or bad sprite flicker - why would anyone program that into a game? And if it is hardware just struggling to keep up, then I guess it is technically a flaw...even if ultimately it makes the game better/more playable.
But then what do I know, I'd be interested if anyone here knows for certain what the deal is.

As far as ports go, it can't be that hard to emulate the slowdown for the sake of arcade perfectness and then just add an option to turn it on or off in the settings for the game...can it?

[EOJ]

Some of it is due to the hardware, some of it is software programmed. I'd bet a lot of it in Mushi and Mushi Futari is in the software. If you play Espgaluda 2 at full zesshikai-overmode, or DDP DFK at a level 5 hyper, you can see the hardware can handle a lot of bullets at fast speeds without much slowdown.

It seems like all of it is due to hardware in Ketsui. The slowdown is pretty choppy.

[MrMonkeyMan]

If this japjac guy is as clueless as you're saying, it's possible that what he wrote there is a mistranslation.

"The original PCB is nigh on perfect as a serious up screen shoot `em-up in my opinion apart from the occasional annoying slowdown and graphic corruption.  Are you attempting to eliminate these flaws for the consumer release?"

5pb: "Yes we are!

The 5pb guy could have been responding more to the graphic corruption aspect for instance.  I don't see this as a guarantee that there will be no slowdown.

Maybe, but I doubt it. Like I said the slowdown from the stage 1 boss was already missing in the demo, which is indicative of the more obvious interpretation of what the 5pb guy said.

Are you sure?  I can't find a hint of slowdown during the first boss.  I've checked every video I have on my computer, watching the background to see if there's any change at all, and I can't see anything.

japjac has always hated any slowdown in games.. the reason he likes ketsui more than other cave games is due to the fact it has less slowdown than other cave games... i always thought it weird that he would slag off excellent games just because of a bit of slowdown 

What, the lack of slowdown is a great feature of Ketsui.  Cave games of late have had waaaay too much slowdown for my liking.  I really wish they would tone things done a bit.

[EOJ]

There's a tiny bit of slowdown when you destroy those circular spreads and the sides of the first boss at the same time. It's so minor you might not notice, but I was just looking to see if they kept this in or not, as it may be an indicator of whether or not the slowdown is still in other parts of the game.

If you're looking for recent CAVE games (or modes) without much slowdown, try Futari Ultra, Futari Original (especially ver 1.0), or Muchi Muchi Pork. MMP has choppy slowdown like Ketsui (though not as choppy as Ketsui).

Personally I love the slowdown in Mushi (Maniac & Ultra), Mushi Futari (Maniac), DDP:DFK, and Deathsmiles. It's smooth and feels perfect. I think there's way too much slowdown in MFBL God mode, after awhile it feels like you're playing the game in slow motion.

[PROMETHEUS]

Personally I love the slowdown in Mushi (Maniac & Ultra), Mushi Futari (Maniac), DDP:DFK, and Deathsmiles. It's smooth and feels perfect. I think there's way too much slowdown in MFBL God mode, after awhile it feels like you're playing the game in slow motion.

very much agreed
Slowdown is a great thing to allow a game to feature crazy patterns yet still be playable. Too much slowdown can suck sometimes, as in Futari BL God Mode, but Mushi ultra or DDP DFK wouldn't be as enjoyable and interesting without slowdown : either their patters would have to be simplified or they would be too hard and nearly unplayable in some places.

[EOJ]

Another (crap) post by JAPJAC answering questions about slowdown in the port (last message on the page):

http://www.japjac.proboards58.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=share&thread=193&page=1

Unfortunately he (JAPJAC) shows he's a moron because he doesn't understand that the slowdown on the PCB sets the benchmark for all high scores, and any port without it alters that benchmark, making the scores incomparable. But he seems to suck at these games, so I'm not surprised something so simple would go over his head. He also makes the crazy, baseless theory that due to Ketsui's lack of slowdown, it has held its value more than other games. 

Also, he says the "graphic corruption" doesn't occur until level 2. Once again wrong. It can occur at the end of stage 1 before the boss. I don't think he's played this game much at all.

[Kaneda]

japjac has always said Cave games are `utter shite` because of the slowdown which is completely trivial to me when you factor in the gameplay and presentation. He doesnt know how to play these games so I guess its understandable that he doesnt like them, but I think its more due to the fact that theyre so popular and he needs to go against the grain. This guy has claimed that Nebulas Ray is the best shooter ever and that Haunted Castle is better than Dracula X Chi no Rondo. Pathetic stuff.

[EOJ]

Thanks for the background info on that douche.

I just have to say that it's disappointing that the guys porting Ketsui apparently see eye to eye with morons like JAPJAC. Didn't they have a chat with Mihara? Didn't they know all the trouble he went through to get the slowdown as accurate as he could on the Galuda and DDPDOJ ports? Didn't they understand WHY he went through all that trouble? Didn't they talk with any Japanese dude who plays Ketsui seriously?

It just strikes me as pure laziness. "No slowdown= better version than the arcade, and less work too! Win win!!". At least include a "wait" option, or whatever. I'd even take that slowdown button the PSX DDP port had. It at least shows the guys porting the game have a clue as to what matters in archiving these games.

[Kaneda]

I think having an `arcade perfect` option as well as a `360 mode` with no slowdown and/or improved graphics would be the best solution and would show that theyre serious about making a quality port. And if its going to take them another year to port a 6 year old game then I think they should have plenty of time to make that happen.

[zakk]

At this point it's pretty obvious no one is ever going to put the level of effort Mihara did into a Cave port. Unfortunately that level of effort is just not rewarded in terms of sales. It's rewarded in terms of reputation, which is something Mihara clearly cared about.

Also for the 'non hardcore' the Ketsui slowdown is probably viewed as bad. It never really 'smoothly' slows down, it just rapes the framerate in a bad way. It's also kinda inconsistent, which makes 'emulating' it even more difficult

[Ast-Kot]

During the last cave matsuri a porting team guys says that for the DDp they have recived sono help from IKD but for Ketsui they have no help from cave..

[markedkiller78]

I have to admit that the Slowdown on Level 4 of MMP feels more of a hardware issue than to help gameplay, but with Ketsui no slowdown would be horrendous.

I?m crap at the game already, taking away the slowdown will no doubt make me worse

[GaijinPunch]

Is the consensus still that Ketsui will be released in late 2009?  Amazon has it listed as "this winter" and you can even pre-order it w/ DOJ-X to save a few bucks.  Weird if it is another year down the road.  Amazon has mis-listed before though.

[EOJ]

Is the consensus still that Ketsui will be released in late 2009? 

No, this has been slated for some time in winter 09 (i.e. Jan-March 2009). The only people saying "end of 2009" are goofs on shmups.com who don't know what they're talking about.