On sale 5/27 - 5/28
http://www.cave-shop.jp/fs/caveshop/cvga0002
What in the fuck.
Fastest reply ever.
This has the potential to be the coolest game ever. I always loved the look and sound of Mushi, but imagine being able to play it with a nice new scoring system that doesn't kill your fingers or require you to wire some elaborate rapid fire setup.
The screenshots show credits inserted, so it doesn't look like a "home version" PCB like Akai Katana Limited Ver. Let's hope some arcades get this.
Yeah, definitely. The main thing that sucked about this from memory: there is no Maniac mode, which is the only one I really loved. And while I liked the unique scoring system of Maniac & Ultra, it just gets fucking painful after a while. No way could I ever got back to that now.
Quote from: GaijinPunch on May 21, 2011, 04:54:10 AM
The main thing that sucked about this from memory: there is no Maniac mode, which is the only one I really loved.
Are you thinking of the Matsuri Blue Label version? It looks like this version is somewhat different from that, and the screenshots show Maniac Mode is in it:
(http://www.cave-shop.jp/img/item/mushihimekiban/ss07.jpg)
Anyway, I slapped it on the front page with info on the changes:
http://www.cave-stg.com/?p=1489
Quote from: EOJ on May 21, 2011, 04:40:33 AM
What in the fuck.
That's mildly put. I hope this is an indication of a 360 port. :righton:
:o best news this year.
Quote from: EOJ on May 21, 2011, 04:43:39 AM
The screenshots show credits inserted, so it doesn't look like a "home version" PCB like Akai Katana Limited Ver. Let's hope some arcades get this.
I sincerely hope this is the case - the recent trend of prioritising home port / adaptations over genuine arcade material almost felt like the beginning of the end for their brutal vertical shooters.
Having said that though I'd have a wager on this reaching the xbox 360 in some way or another - just let the arcades have a good crack at it first!
edit:
Quote from: emphatic on May 21, 2011, 05:17:19 AM
I hope this is an indication of a 360 port. :righton:
...beat me to it :)
My prediction: this will be an XBLA port (Mushi/Mushi 1.5 pack) with no hi res graphic upgrades, 800MS points, within the next year.
Okay, so Maniac mode is in. That's reassuring. Honestly, the 1.5 Matsuri one was not all that. It was an interesting tweak, but you couldn't sell it on it's own.
My prediction: You'll never see this, the Personal version of AK:LE, or DDP Campaign on any console.
Quote from: GaijinPunch on May 21, 2011, 06:06:42 AM
My prediction: You'll never see this, the Personal version of AK:LE, or DDP Campaign on any console.
I bet on this too. I just can't see them pumping out two special flavor PCBs and then releasing them as $10 downloadables a year later.
Very surprising news. Better than not doing anything arcade-related, I guess.
Quote from: HVL on May 21, 2011, 06:31:38 AM
I just can't see them pumping out two special flavor PCBs and then releasing them as $10 downloadables a year later.
-Guwange Blue Label was a Matsuri ver PCB, included in the $10 XBLA port. I think they would have sold Guwange Blue Label as a PCB too, if they could still make those PCBs.
-We got a port of MMP Matsuri ver for free basically (as preorder DLC).
And let's not forget Cave started selling DFK BL PCBs in their shop for 180,000 yen a bit before the X360 port came out. People bought them even though they knew the port was coming soon.
Cave are a business and they'll do whatever makes them money but yes I also hope these remain PCB exclusive. It would be nice to see them show a bit of respect for the collectors for once. 1,500 Yen Guwange art anyone? :whyioughtta:
And yes, I will be all over this.
EDIT: For some reason I assumed this was Futari :facepalm: Wow. This certainly was unexpected.
Quote from: EOJ on May 21, 2011, 05:42:10 AM
My prediction: this will be an XBLA port (Mushi/Mushi 1.5 pack) with no hi res graphic upgrades, 800MS points, within the next year.
let's hope it happens :righton:
Lol, the milking continues!
Anyone get the feeling Cave are using up the last of their SH3 stock with these limited arrange releases?
Seems like a sneaky clearout to me. :-\
Quote from: skykid on May 21, 2011, 08:28:56 AM
Lol, the milking continues!
Anyone get the feeling Cave are using up the last of their SH3 stock with these limited arrange releases?
Seems like a sneaky clearout to me. :-\
You should just be happy that DOJ is on PGM hardware. :laugh:
Quote from: EOJ on May 21, 2011, 05:42:10 AM
My prediction: this will be an XBLA port (Mushi/Mushi 1.5 pack) with no hi res graphic upgrades, 800MS points, within the next year.
Again What in the fuck? This is awesome and extremely unexpected news. Here's hoping you end up bbeing right about an eventual port. Guess we'll just have to wait for more news.
Quote from: EOJ on May 21, 2011, 05:42:10 AM
My prediction: this will be an XBLA port (Mushi/Mushi 1.5 pack) with no hi res graphic upgrades, 800MS points, within the next year.
What the fuck?
It came from the blue.
And I was planning to step into a pcb shop when Im going to Japan and buy the original Mushi...
..I always disliked the weak start of the shots, start with Max sounds amazing.
But about the quote: :righton:
Wow very cool and unexpected! And not that long until we (hopefully) see videos coming in. I wonder if there's a new TLB?
Quote from: Shalashaska on May 21, 2011, 01:58:27 PMI wonder if there's a new TLB?
WORLDS HARDEST BOSS EVAR PART 2.
Yeah my prediction is they will sell a different Matsuri PCB version of the other games on future festivals and also that I won't be able to afford any of them.
360 port...?
The profit margin on the PCBs they sell from their shop is crazy. The PCB itself probably doesn't cost more than $100 to make, and they code these "Matsuri tweaked" versions in a few hours of their spare time, fiddling around. It all adds up to bags o' money.
Good for them, though. There are people willing to pay $2000+ for their games and most companies can't say that. Whatever helps keep the console/arcade development division profitable.
Quote from: Raiden on May 21, 2011, 10:17:19 PM
360 port...?
Some time in the future or never. Flip a coin.
Yeah my issue with this is the weekend sale only thing. Hopefully it's going to be like the home Akai Katana where it initially goes up for a day or 2 and then later it's up for sale for months.
I'd bet on that. Cave won't turn away from easy money.
Then it shall be mine lol... They do turn away from easy money all the time though. The entire bit with only selling stuff for a few hours out of a year is turning away from easy money. It creates demand but I think overall they'd sell more if things didn't sell out in 5 minutes. They are opening up with the international stuff though. Pretty exciting. I was thinking we had seen the last game on this hardware for sure and now this, this is exciting. I want a shot at it and not from someone that buys it and jacks up the price.
I hope all the Matsuri versions take coins and go in arcades.
Quote from: Muchi Muchi Spork on May 21, 2011, 11:06:58 PM
They do turn away from easy money all the time though. The entire bit with only selling stuff for a few hours out of a year is turning away from easy money.
I can't think of much that they really only sell for a "few hours out of a year". Pretty much everything shows up again on their shop soon after, or in subsequent festivals. As you mentioned in your previous post, Akai Katana Limited Ver showed up again after its first offering.
Really hoping that this and vanilla Mushi get a 360 release. Looking forward to seeing some vids up eventually as well, as I have no idea what the scoring will entail. Mushi's a pretty great game, but the scoring always seemed a little abstract to me.
Quote
-Guwange Blue Label was a Matsuri ver PCB, included in the $10 XBLA port. I think they would have sold Guwange Blue Label as a PCB too, if they could still make those PCBs.
-We got a port of MMP Matsuri ver for free basically (as preorder DLC).
And let's not forget Cave started selling DFK BL PCBs in their shop for 180,000 yen a bit before the X360 port came out. People bought them even though they knew the port was coming soon.
But those were never released as special PCBs. They also didn't release Futari 1.51 (of which there were 3 given away as prizes). And, let's not forget that time after time they've stated the Campaign Version will not be ported. While the cash would be nice, they would basically be pulling the rug out from under themselves from the handful of people that will buy these boards.
Quoteand they code these "Matsuri tweaked" versions in a few hours of their spare time, fiddling around. It all adds up to bags o' money.
Well, we know for sure this one has more added as it's got Maniac mode. If it was truly an algorithmical change, then they'd surely have just left it in at the actual Matsuri. Also, the slowdown in Ultra was really choppy. I'd be shocked if a true product version didn't have that taken care of. In short, they probably put some more work into this one.
Quote from: Muchi Muchi Spork on May 21, 2011, 09:20:14 PM
Yeah my prediction is they will sell a different Matsuri PCB version of the other games on future festivals and also that I won't be able to afford any of them.
It concerns my wallet that they've gone back to their first SH-3 title too. Ibara v1.5 next? :laugh:
Quote from: SuperPang on May 22, 2011, 07:08:32 AM
Quote from: Muchi Muchi Spork on May 21, 2011, 09:20:14 PM
Yeah my prediction is they will sell a different Matsuri PCB version of the other games on future festivals and also that I won't be able to afford any of them.
It concerns my wallet that they've gone back to their first SH-3 title too. Ibara v1.5 next? :laugh:
ESPGALUDA II Black Label? :righton:
Quote from: SuperPang on May 22, 2011, 07:08:32 AM
Quote from: Muchi Muchi Spork on May 21, 2011, 09:20:14 PM
Yeah my prediction is they will sell a different Matsuri PCB version of the other games on future festivals and also that I won't be able to afford any of them.
It concerns my wallet that they've gone back to their first SH-3 title too. Ibara v1.5 next? :laugh:
I can't see them doing this for games that already got 1.5s and black labels.
So was this Matsuri Version available to play at the previous festivals? If so were there any other special versions of SH-3 games?
Quote from: yosai on May 22, 2011, 03:09:33 PM
So was this Matsuri Version available to play at the previous festivals? If so were there any other special versions of SH-3 games?
From what people are saying, it's different from the original Matsuri version because it has a Maniac mode. There are other Matsuri versions, you can see them listed:
http://www.cave-stg.com/?page_id=307
I don't think the "start with MAX power" thing was in the Matsuri ver either. This seems pretty different.
Thanks for the link Ketsui Blue Version sounds interesting. According to Google there is an impression here but the site appears to be down atm.
http://www.gamengai.com/cmnt_inf.php?id=1621&type=0&p=3
Wow, that Ketsui Blue Version sounds awesome. One loop, changed ship mechanics and more bullets. :righton: How is it I knever knew about this. :o
Wow, that's unexpected... Actually not that much, considering how they had tried the waters recently what with AK LTD and the like. Really profitable with direct distribution and such a high price.
Still it's nice to see new a version, and hopefully fixes what broken of a game it was. The only problem is that I also think that the chances of this seeing a port are rather small. Higher than AK LTD, but still quite small.
Such bitter sweat news...... Ugh I want it so bad but I just can't afford that. Not unless I sell My OG kit and my DFK kit. Now my gears are turning.
God I hope they do a retail disc for this. I really want this as a retail release with a report of mushi 1 and then this added along with an HD overhaul and options to customize the soundtracks like the DFK port. Anything else added would be a perk... I could live without the HD over hall but would prefer it.
Quote from: EOJ on May 22, 2011, 03:29:53 PM
I don't think the "start with MAX power" thing was in the Matsuri ver either. This seems pretty different.
It wasn't -- you started w/ the 4 options [EDIT: 2? I'm getting old]. I actually wrote a good paragraph or so on the topic if someone wants to go dig it up at shmups. Maybe linked from oxtsu's list? I might have it on gamengai, somewhere. Sven666 has video of Ultra mode. I do too.... somewhere. Probably buried in porn by now.
QuoteThanks for the link Ketsui Blue Version sounds interesting. According to Google there is an impression here but the site appears to be down atm.
http://www.gamengai.com/cmnt_inf.php?id=1621&type=0&p=3
Sorry -- I have issues at times. Not sure WTF is up w/ the site, honestly. I might just start cronning reboots. :) I was able to load it -- has some video of Ketsui Blue.
EDIT:
Okay, found the Mushi 1.5 info
here (http://www.gamengai.com/cmnt_inf.php?id=1552&p=2).
QuoteAlso featured was Mushihime-sama version 1.5. As far as anyone could tell, Original mode featured faster bullets, and Ultra mode featured slower but more bullets. There was no Maniac mode, unfortunately. Either mode started the player out with two rotating options, and the lasers, instead of the green-yellow found in the original version, were the red, blue, or dark green, depending on what shot type you currently were. Worth noting is that the slowdown in Ultra gets pretty out of hand, and Original mode drops a hell of a lot of frames..
Video found at the end of
this page (http://www.gamengai.com/cmnt_inf.php?id=1552&p=3)
Just one question (sorry if this already has been posted), haven?t hade the time to read through it all. If I understand it correct the game will ONLY be release to buy from the cave international store and there will be no problems to buy for us located in EU?
Well, the custom/tax will probably be high?
It's just on the Japanese store for its initial offering (May 27-28). It will probably show up on the International store later on, like DFK BL and Akai Katana Limited Ver (both are still in stock in the International store today).
Quote from: EOJ on May 23, 2011, 06:49:53 AM
It's just on the Japanese store for its initial offering (May 27-28). It will probably show up on the International store later on, like DFK BL and Akai Katana Limited Ver (both are still in stock in the International store today).
Shit, was just about to start camping with my credit card and computer ?
Quote from: SinHo on May 23, 2011, 07:13:49 AM
Quote from: EOJ on May 23, 2011, 06:49:53 AM
It's just on the Japanese store for its initial offering (May 27-28). It will probably show up on the International store later on, like DFK BL and Akai Katana Limited Ver (both are still in stock in the International store today).
Shit, was just about to start camping with my credit card and computer ?
You can contact Celga to buy it for you. I'm sure they will, but you'll have to pay their fees and funky currency conversion.
Page updated w/ videoo
http://www.cave-shop.jp/fs/caveshop/cvga0002
Quote from: GaijinPunch on May 25, 2011, 12:29:25 AM
Page updated w/ videoo
http://www.cave-shop.jp/fs/caveshop/cvga0002
Looks and sounds great! :righton:
I am so thinking about getting this game....
The whole set looks really cool.
I don't like Mushihimesama enough to even think about grabbing this though.
Looks pretty cool. Can't say I like the new soundtrack thus far though.
Sounds solid to me. Good that they made a arranged soundtrack from the original and not a complete new one..
Wonder how stage 4 sounds.
- Maybe we will have a option to change to the old soundtrack as well in the menu.
Quote from: eckart on May 25, 2011, 04:22:13 AM
- Maybe we will have a option to change to the old soundtrack as well in the menu.
That would be a first on a Cave PCB.
Quote from: EOJ on May 25, 2011, 04:32:54 AM
Quote from: eckart on May 25, 2011, 04:22:13 AM
- Maybe we will have a option to change to the old soundtrack as well in the menu.
That would be a first on a Cave PCB.
You better hope if they do that they finally used the last 2 sound rom spaces. Otherwise it will be compressed down so much it will sound worse than a Deathsmiles board.
My God, after pretty much only playing the PS2 port, this looks like HD. :laugh: I wonder have they've captured the video.
Original with Max Power looks like it's taken some cues from Futari Black label.
I would really love to have this. :(
Quote from: emphatic on May 25, 2011, 11:56:15 AM
My God, after pretty much only playing the PS2 port, this looks like HD. :laugh: I wonder have they've captured the video.
It's probably an RGB converter going to S-Video, S-Video into a PC capture card. Then have that output file centered in a video editing program to put the outer framing (blurred blowup and text) and then output that whole thing in HD/1080.
Ok that was a stupid idea. Why they should put that in an arranged game.
Notized that the nice big countertypo from version 1.0 is minimized.
Maybe a prozessor issue.
- Wonder if we now will have a auto-tapping-button.
Quote from: SuperPang on May 22, 2011, 07:08:32 AM
Quote from: Muchi Muchi Spork on May 21, 2011, 09:20:14 PM
Yeah my prediction is they will sell a different Matsuri PCB version of the other games on future festivals and also that I won't be able to afford any of them.
It concerns my wallet that they've gone back to their first SH-3 title too. Ibara v1.5 next? :laugh:
Don't say that! I think I would buy any remixed ibara, providing it played like a Yagawa game.
Yet more games I'll likiley never get a chance to play.
:o :o
I think I just earned half a business-class upgrade in miles.
NICE. Christmas seems to have come early for some people this year!
Anyone take the plunge? And if so, what is your address? >:D
The cave shop page is still there.
My japanese is not so good...but is it still available then to buy?
I hope its still there in a month, then I can prolly afford a copy.
Quote from: Monouchi on May 31, 2011, 02:39:00 AM
The cave shop page is still there.
My japanese is not so good...but is it still available then to buy?
I hope its still there in a month, then I can prolly afford a copy.
Nope, the sale's over.
Thanks.
... :'(
Apparently, this is at Hey! now according to rancor @ shmups.
Yeah, this guy says Hey has two of them:
http://jbbs.livedoor.jp/bbs/read.cgi/game/44689/1257526849/377
They'll probably pop up at some other arcades. Nice you can try before you buy.
That guy mentioned the following about Original mode:
-He played Original mode at MAX power and got up to stage 3
-Enemies have increased in number
-Enemy bullets have increased
-Scoring system is somewhat changed (not greatly). Proximity based bullet shedding seems to be the main thing.
A writeup from a Japanese guy that bought it:
http://sigrsw.blog.shinobi.jp/Entry/16/
Original plays a lot like Futari BL original, with bullet speed increases when you pass certain levels of the counter. When you hit 10K, the bullets speed up and have a green outline. When you hit 50K, they get even faster, and have a yellow outline. The guy wonders what happens when you hit 100K (red outlines and super fast?) It seems rapid fire isn't needed for high scores now (which would mean fast C tapping is also out), but this isn't totally confirmed yet (more testing needed). Ultra MAX has tons of slowdown, making it manageable.
Bullets getting faster when multiplier increases!? Sounds awesome, sounds like a new way for them to implement rank, I wondering if it has been "Yagawafied"...
Not really new, Futari 1.5 and BL both did the same thing (bigger multiplier = faster bullets). It would be neat to see if Yagawa worked on it, but from what I've read about it, it doesn't really sound like his style.
A guy on shmups post this link:
http://livetube.cc/%E3%81%BF%E3%81%93%E ... %8Aver1.5+
I downloaded it, but from my system it is unable to watch, guess the size is to big.- Better see it live.
I like those max modes and i think the ultra max mode is a bit easy than the original ultra mode.
The soundtrack fits great, imo. Charming to the original tracks.
Good upgrade cave!
Yeah, I watched a bit of the vid. Neat that you can suck in ground gems with the A shot, just like Futari 1.5.
Quote from: EOJ on May 31, 2011, 05:44:30 PM
Yeah, this guy says Hey has two of them:
They're weak. I have 6 on my floor. >:D
So we have two versions of the pcb? One with battery and one without?
I mean the one in the unboxing link has a battery
and the one displayed at the caveshop has no one.
Quote from: eckart on June 03, 2011, 09:38:33 AM
So we have two versions of the pcb? One with battery and one without?
I mean the one in the unboxing link has a battery
and the one displayed at the caveshop has no one.
The one on YAJ has a battery.
http://tinyurl.com/438d5ve
Quote from: TonK on June 04, 2011, 12:11:42 AM
http://tinyurl.com/438d5ve
Interesting that so many bought this for resale.
"IT SHOULD BE THE LAST CAVE SHOOTING GAME RELEASED AS PCB / ARCADE GAME"
...oh, really..
Quote from: TonK on June 04, 2011, 12:11:42 AM
http://tinyurl.com/438d5ve
Made extra special being sold by lil.tupac. Thug Life to all the PCB owners out there.
Haha. Lil Tupac. ???
Anyhoo, I played the game at Taito Station last night, as I'm a gentlemen and want everyone who got one through me have that "new" feeling. I only played Maniac. From what I can tell the only thing that's the same w/ the real Matsuri version is the laser colors. Plenty of other stuff different, including the palette upgrade.
For what it's worth, I got to stage 3, and I'm WAY out of practice. Don't quote me on it but it looks like there's been some enemies added, and the counter gets pretty high. I jacked it up to 30,000 on stage 1 and played awful. Wasn't even at the top of the screen for most of it. Fun stuff!
Quote from: GaijinPunch on June 05, 2011, 12:14:53 AM
Haha. Lil Tupac. ???
Anyhoo, I played the game at Taito Station last night, as I'm a gentlemen and want everyone who got one through me have that "new" feeling. I only played Maniac. From what I can tell the only thing that's the same w/ the real Matsuri version is the laser colors. Plenty of other stuff different, including the palette upgrade.
For what it's worth, I got to stage 3, and I'm WAY out of practice. Don't quote me on it but it looks like there's been some enemies added, and the counter gets pretty high. I jacked it up to 30,000 on stage 1 and played awful. Wasn't even at the top of the screen for most of it. Fun stuff!
What if lil tupac is a short Asian rapper that collects Cave kits?
Hope nobody buy his expensive stuff! Cave feed the traders...
GP, sounds good that you like this game. Hope there is a way to deselect the autobomb modus. But, maybe it is allright with autobomb.
Guess maniac max mode is a step more difficult than version 1.0.
Brentsg, thanks for the info!
Finally got around to playing a few credits. The three standard modes feel very much like a v1.5. Maniac/Ultra's DDP-esque hit counter and kill speed thing remains but with added Futari gem sucking mechanics. There are a few more enemies too. The Max Power modes are like a steroid injection. The counter flies up and the bullets kick up a gear at certain points. It's really, really fun. You only get one bomb which is purely there as an autobomb. There are colour palette changes and the up-tempo arranged soundtrack suits the game well. The game throws extends at you left right and centre. Also, original MP's counter climbs by itself.
Quote from: SuperPang on June 07, 2011, 12:48:05 PM
The game throws extends at you left right and centre.
Point based yes? Also, when you choose Max Power is there a way to switch your "options" (not sure what they're technically called in Mushi) from formation to trace? Or do you just have to wait and pick up the corresponding powerup like in vanilla Mushi?
Thanks for the quick impression. Keep them coming as you spend more time with it. :righton:
I played Maniac (not full) and didn't have autobomb. In fact, in the first 15 seconds I did a really , really stupid death.
Autobomb is only when you start with Max power, from what I've heard.
Correct. And as you only start with one bomb and bullets get fast, it's welcome.
Extends are score based, yes. I don't think you can swap options. They're still collectable and there are only 3 buttons but I'll check.
I've had a nasty chest infection and have only stopped coughing long enough for a few credits :facepalm: That said, it feels immediately more exciting than 1.0 and I'm not a fan of Futaris counter colour system so this could well be my favourite Mushi. :righton:
Seems there is a bug where you can't enter your score if Continues are turned off. I have had two people PM me asking if I have the same problem so it's not just my PCB. :whyioughtta:
That`s a realy shit bug would i say. Let`s hope this is the only one.
-Will get my copy hopefully next week. :righton:
Enjoying Original Max at the moment, that's the one with the coloured bullet trails and speed that changes gear with the counter. Maniac/Ultra Max just seem to be Maniac/Ultra with added bullets and speed, presumably because the counter speed system would get a bit out of hand here. Ultra Max is perfectly playable. They really did go too far with Futari Ultra didn't they :laugh:
Quote from: SuperPang on June 09, 2011, 09:44:20 AMThey really did go too far with Futari Ultra didn't they :laugh:
I think it was really great that they dared release a version that is unplayable until you memorize it, because that is pretty much the only way to make a shmup very very hard from start to finish, which is what the best players enjoy most !
(Since a shmup always become way easier once you have memorized it precisely, it can't be extremely hard unless it is entirely unplayable until memorized)
Yeah, good point. Plus it's not like those older games where you can't even see your hitbox and every dodge feels like a gamble so it's a pretty fair mode in that respect.
Quote from: ProMeTheus on June 10, 2011, 02:05:22 PMI think it was really great that they dared release a version that is unplayable until you memorize it, because that is pretty much the only way to make a shmup very very hard from start to finish, which is what the best players enjoy most !
(Since a shmup always become way easier once you have memorized it precisely, it can't be extremely hard unless it is entirely unplayable until memorized)
This is definitely a subject for a different topic, but I disagree it's the only way. There are scoring systems that, with the core game not being overly hard survival-wise, demand such finesse and stamina at world-class competition level it remains a continuous challenge irrespective to memorization, as no matter how precisely you memorize your route the level of challenge won't drop, as it's (often entirely) dependent on your current skill level. In this respect memorizing it precisely is actually counterproductive as new tweaks must be made as soon as you become skillful enough to take advantage of them.
Cases in point:
? Ketsui (the core game is not easy by any extent, is long, and scoring over 400 million, let alone 500, puts you under ridiculous pressure);
? Futari BL Original (lightspeed bullets + constant point-blanking) and God (scoring above 5 billion is about no-missing/no-bombing while constantly filling the screen to the brim with bullets);
? Galuda II (has it all in various proportions, but 800+ million scores are also about constantly filling the screen with bullets and no-missing for the huge endgame bonus);
? most Yagawa games (manageable with proper rank control, very challenging at high-level play, especially Harder/Extended modes);
? many games revolving mostly around grazing or an otherwise similar interaction with bullets, as it incurs constantly finding more bullet-heavy spots to take advantage of.
These games all become harder the better you play them
because you play them better, which is most often not the case with survival/memorization-based difficulty.
I see what you're trying to say but you could hardly say those games are "very very hard from start to finish".
It's true some scoring mechanics can make a game difficult even if it's quite manageable even when unknown ; but we're not reaching the same levels of difficulty. I can't think of anything as hard as Mushihimesama Futari Ultra except DOJ's last stages on max rank, which are also unplayable until memorized.
I don't understand what you mean with memorization not dropping challenge level for some games. If you are a great player, it is still impossible to 1CC Ketsui on your first credits if you have never played it before, and then it becomes kinda easy to no miss no bomb the first loop once you have precisely memorized it. Sure, if you optimize your scoring you can make it harder, but in the end the point still is to no miss no bomb it kinda consistently, so obviously the level of challenge has dropped enormously compared to playing without memorization. Most of the Cave games that loop offer great difficulty only in the last few stages and true last boss, and critically punish a miss or bomb in first loop.
I'm sure the same goes with all games. Of course it will still be challenging to get a perfect run up to the last levels, but the game will hardly stay very hard from start to finish once you have memorized it well. Except for games that are unplayable without memorization from the very 1st stage.
Just out of curiosity why don't you play the game more? I think you could get some pretty sweet scores man.
This is getting double off topic !
DOJ ? Will play again later, just not that much time lately, been doing other stuff, lazy to learn new stages, so I just play 1-4/1-5 when I have a few minutes, getting consistent. I'm in no rush ! Maybe I'll start learning second loop in August/September. Thanks for your encouragements.
Back on topic though, I second EOJ when he said :
QuoteThis has the potential to be the coolest game ever. I always loved the look and sound of Mushi, but imagine being able to play it with a nice new scoring system that doesn't kill your fingers or require you to wire some elaborate rapid fire setup.
Cause I was thinking exactly the same. Would be cool to try this.
Quote from: ProMeTheus on June 11, 2011, 12:05:29 PMIt's true some scoring mechanics can make a game difficult even if it's quite manageable even when unknown ; but we're not reaching the same levels of difficulty. I can't think of anything as hard as Mushihimesama Futari Ultra except DOJ's last stages on max rank, which are also unplayable until memorized.
It's hard to measure or even appreciate the difference between the "hardcoded" difficulty of a largely rigid scoring system like Futari Ultra's (where simply not ever dying until Larsa is going to bring you around 3 billion or even more) compared to manually added difficulty from scoring-induced risk-taking. If we take it ? just hypothetically, bear with me ? that in Ultra's case the success in dealing with certain parts of the game depends on 50% memorizing the safest route/50% dodging your way through, and it doesn't fluctuate much in that case, in scalable scoring systems it starts with around 80-90% memorization/10-20% dodging and gradually moves to around 10-20%/80-90% because
safety becomes progressively counterproductive (and, consequently, additional risk taking is required for score increases). In that way, stage 1 in 1.5 Ultra will become relatively
easier the better you play, and will never rise above a certain threshold regardless of score, while stage 1 in BL Original will become relatively
harder the better you play, even if the latter is still lower on the absolute difficulty scale, and will keep getting harder as long as you're doing better. It's also why you occasionally see even the hardest games no-miss/no-bombed until final bosses where the main problems usually begin: their difficulty maxes out at a certain point and only goes down from there on.
Quote from: ProMeTheus on June 11, 2011, 12:05:29 PMI don't understand what you mean with memorization not dropping challenge level for some games. If you are a great player, it is still impossible to 1CC Ketsui on your first credits if you have never played it before, and then it becomes kinda easy to no miss no bomb the first loop once you have precisely memorized it. I'm sure the same goes with all games. Of course it will still be challenging to get a perfect run up to the last levels, but the game will hardly stay very hard from start to finish.
I mean that with a scalable scoring system the game's difficulty rises proportionally to your skill level, so memorizing the exact same strategy will not bring an increase in score because in order to increase your score you have to take more risk, thus using a different strategy, and changing it all the time to accomodate for the increase in your skill level.
As for staying hard from start to finish, I can assure you that for players who can clear Futari Ultra the first couple stages aren't hard, either. I myself can do better in those than in later stages as well. It's normal for games to have difficulty curve, you aren't getting around that no matter what the scoring system is.
(I hope this is cut into a separate topic because it's an interesting subject worthy of discussion.)
I like thinking about and discussing shmup theory but I think it can't be valid or clear unless we use extremely precise examples and terms ; I don't understand exactly what your memorization/dodging ratio represents.
I see that you're saying how some games have scoring systems that allow a lot of room for optimization, thus making the game harder and harder as you get better. But if you stick to one specific strategy, refining it will make it easier and easier via memorization which is always a part of shmup. And one day you will get to the max optimization and then keep refining that, also making your stage easier and easier. If you refuse to stick to a strategy for an extended period of time you will never be consistent unless it's way too easy for you.
This is what I did with DOJ : I thought "ok let's look at crazy HFD. Mmmh, looks hard but maybe I can do it in first loop". So instead of starting with any other kind of less optimized route, I just learned his max routes right away. And it worked because my skill was already enough. The optimized first stages are not nearly as hard as a Futari Ultra route, by the way. Now I haven't optimized exactly as much as HFD did, but if I kept changing routes to get to his optimization level, I would never be able to stick to a very precisely memorized route, which is KEY to success in shmups. If I want a little more optimization, I just have to modify my memory using HFD's video and repeat that new section as many times as it takes. But in the end, there is a maximum difficulty, and in the end, memorization is still as critical. So I stuck to a chosen, satisfying route and memorized it super well while getting those skills up too.
I see memorization as an inherent flaw of shmups. It is quite alright though, like I said in my guide I think it is very similar to learning how to play a song, and it is extremely good practice for your memory.
I'll use my music analogy again right now :
Futari Ultra is a song that you can only play one way, as it doesn't sound right at all otherwise. The way you have to play it is extremely hard.
On the other hand, Ketsui can be played many different ways, sounding better if you play it in a more difficult way. The easiest version is quite easy, the hardest version is very hard, but whichever version you pick, practice makes perfect ! (= practicing and memorizing any of those version makes it easier and easier)
And the first half of its hardest version isn't quite as hard as the first half of Futari Ultra's only version.
I'd argue that there's often another element to this - I think Ketsui's Ura loop is significantly more difficult than Futari Ultra (pre-Larsa), largely because it can't be completely memorized. It is of course possible to plan a 'general' route, but there are lots of sections where you'll largely have to invent a route through the bullets on the spot due to the inherent randomness of the suicide bullets - you can see this in SPS's superplay on YouTube. You'll still get better at it via practicing, but it's not always something you can plan completely for, and managing this consistently while also scoring well is incredibly difficult. I guess using your analogy it'd be the seperate skill of being able to come up with a very technical, improvised solo in the middle of a song. :P
You just made me want to play Ketsui Ura :p
I played this yesterday and it gets a thumbs up from me. Only tried Original and thought it was ok on the regular setting (pretty much the same thing as before) but its a lot of fun on MAX. Felt like Futari Black Label, only harder.
A port would be nice.
For those wondering about scoring in this game, ABI (Futari 1.5 Original mode WR holder) has started playing this at the arcade and he seems to love it. He is playing Original MAX mode, and so far has 400million. He says he's working on stage patterns that he thinks will bring his score to around 1 billion:
http://abi123.blog110.fc2.com/blog-entry-322.html#cm
Interesting stuff! Hoping for a port of this even more now, ABI's XBL Futari Original replay is a huge inspiration/help for my attempts at the game.
Now if only they'd announce a console port.
Any decent scoring vids floating around yet? I am suck.
It's refreshing to be playing a good old fashioned IKD danmaku again though :righton:
SuperPang, that sounds good.;)
-Today i got the poster. I was a bit disapointed seeing the man at the office comes with that long tube package.
Anyway, he was cool and draw 10 dollars on a paper and give it to me, so i didn`t have to pay any taxes for it.
(http://ciaomichael.de/stuff/pics/ms1.jpg)
Every time I see that I first think it's a mushihimetama poster rather than a mushihimesama poster!
Every time I see that I first think, "man, that pose looks so uncomfortable, why is she forcing herself?"
Her left arm looks goofy. I honestly not sure if i would frame it.
The very first ms flyer artwork looks best, imo.
I really want to see a play-through vid of this. Doesn't have to be high scoring, just want to see the changes and here the new music.
Got my copy a view days ago. Thanks Sophia.Corp for this great support! :righton:
Realy love this version. For me it is more a 6 in 1. Each mode plays different imo.
Guess you have to use the small lazers to bump up the counter on bigger enemies and than use the a button also.
Just finished the scorpion at level 2 with a 400.000 counter ( normal maniac mode ). Stayed left with one small lazer hitting the head of this thing.
Original max is great, but those yellow bugs in level 3 gets me crazy. Come not much over a 25.000 conter.
The bullet glow effect is realy nice.
If this is cave last pcb than it is 10 imo. But lets hope more pcbs will follow and we will get a 360 port soon!
- The pcb i got was a little used, btw. I mean the jamma connector was not new...
Anybody had the same luck?
(http://ciaomichael.de/stuff/pics/ms2.jpg)
Looks like 5 minutes and change from the Matsuri version are here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWTL2yCerdc
I'm still pretty excited by this - I pretty much agree with EOJ's stattement of the scoring mechanic change being welcome. I dug this game when I owned it, would love to revisit it.
Calling Mushi 1.5 PCB Owners
Could one of you be so kind to fire up your PCB, enter SETUP and goto the MEMORY TEST
The memory test will show two entries with a number afterwards:
CODE AREA
FREE AREA
Could you note down the numbers after each entry and post them here please ?
ABI says (http://abi123.blog110.fc2.com/blog-entry-346.html) he's buying the game from the Cave shop later this month. He's been working on Original mode in the arcades, but wants to focus more time with it. He said he'll be making some videos of it, which, I believe, will be the first videos of the game with good scoring techniques.
Who is ABI? He holds the world record in Mushihimesama Futari 1.5 Original mode (with both Palm and Reco), as well as excellent scores in many other games.
Awesome.
But it will just make me more jealous :\
Edit: I have swapped out videos and added more and I don't want to keep updating the post so just use my channel:
http://www.youtube.com/cavepcb
This is my "first impression" review. Don't ask me about scoring, I just got the board so you would be better off hearing about them from people who have had the board longer than me (like the thread on shmups) or waiting for ABI's demonstration.
Attract Mode:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3OBULHRxsQ
First off it has definitely surpassed my expectations in regards to fun (which were high) and is currently my favorite game. I can't think of another game that has as good of difficulty level jumps. It has everything from "too easy" to "I'll never beat it" in very differing steps. The 6 modes are each very different from the last.
Normal Original
Normal Original mode is basically too easy to 1CC. It is easier than Original mode on the original Mushihimesama, despite having more going on. It seems pretty much like a beginner mode for people who have never played the original release or for people who just sucked at it, although I'm sure getting the top world high score in this mode is as much of a challenge as anything else. I haven't played it for score yet. I got the 1CC my first try (although I have the original Mushihimesama board and this mode doesn't require much adjustment).
Original Mode 1CC:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2L08NS9fjcc
Original Max
Original Max is much harder and is super intense. One thing about the Max modes, describing them as "having the difficulty raised" doesn't seem accurate. It's more like they had the excitement raised and they also happen to be more difficult. It's awesome, much more fun than regular Original mode in the original or matsuri boards. It feels like you shot up a gallon of adrenaline like playing Ketsui, but it's not nearly as difficult as Ketsui. I've gotten to the final boss in 1 credit on the first day playing, and I'm confident I will get the 1CC somewhat soon. It's intense though to the point where even with a lot of practice, I don't think I'll get to the point where I 1CC it every time I play. The difficulty is high enough to where I will want to play this mode over a long period of time for sure.
Stages 1-5 on Original Max:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=De2o2UJKcE0
Normal Maniac
Normal Maniac is again easier than Maniac on the original Mushihimesama which is probably contrary to what you would expect. It seems a tad slower overall, and because of the increase in enemies and bullets on screen, it's in slowdown mode way more often than on the original release. In fact it seems like it was programmed to slow down quicker and more often than the original game regardless of added enemies. So even though there is more to dodge, it's often easier, sort of like going from Futari 1.5 to Black Label. Also the bullet patterns, especially on the later levels, are seemingly tweaked to where even though there are more, you naturally dodge them easier if you have your skills somewhat down. Someone who has gotten the 1CC on the original Mushi in Original or Maniac might very well get the 1CC on them in this version their first try, but they will have a great time doing it, and of course playing for score is a whole different subject. Or, at least, that goes for Original mode and Maniac probably wouldn't take them more than a few days to pull one.
Normal Maniac 1CC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41-Nz5mt_6w
Maniac Max
Maniac Max is so fun that I'm not sure how to describe it. It's hard as hell to the point where it will be a long time before I 1CC it, but it's so fun that I don't mind sucking at it. It really delivers. It's like any limitation that was there before has been removed and you just get flooded with pure awesome. Instead of tweaking out things a little here and there, it sort of kicks them down and laughs.
Stages 1-3 on Maniac Max:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMC3LKbnlgw
Basically the difficulty and patterns in normal Original and Maniac modes in the matsuri board vs. original are like when you went from Futari 1.5 to Black Label, but the Max modes are something totally new. They feel closer to completely new games than a tweak, and they get the adrenaline gushing quickly and insanely.
I think people who liked the original board will love this one and people who found the original game boring might feel the same about the normal modes here but will think differently about the Max modes.
The regular modes seem sort of slow and easy after you have gotten used to the Max ones. If you want to get good at a regular mode, play the Max version for a while first to get your nerves in order and then you will just dominate the hell out of the normal modes like they are a joke. At least the Original mode will seem that way, Maniac...somewhat that way.
Ultra Modes
Normal Ultra I just gave a quick try to. It seems maybe slightly easier than it was on the original Mushi game, don't know, but it's still too much for me. It seems like there are so many bullets that I would need to memorize an exact path instead of practice dodging skills, if that makes any sense, and it just doesn't appeal to me that much. Ultra Max is way more playable, strangely, because if you use the wide shot your fire from the very beginning takes up so much of the screen and there is lots of slowdown, it's actually not as crazy as I had imagined to jump into. It's certainly a less scary jump than regular Ultra modes or even God mode on Futari Black Label. Pretty cool.
Thanks for the uploads, man!
Unless this never gets ported. In which case fuck you, and fuck the world ;)
I would drop the cash for this in a second if I had it to spend. Looks absolutely beautiful.
Thanks MMS for the writeup. :righton:
I also loved playing this game.
If I dont hear about a port soon, then Im gonna go out and hunt the PCB.
Thanks for the write up Muchi Muchi Spork :righton:
Thanks MMS, the quality of your videos are impressive!! Enjoy the game.
I'm not the biggest fan of the original Mushi but this looks really fun. Thanks for the video uploads!
Can anybody explain in any amount of detail what the scoring in this game is like? Does it differ drastically between modes? All I'm getting is that it's like Futari BL Original, with gem overloads occurring after 9999 and from point blank shots, but I don't know how much more there is to it than that. Cave usually makes different difficulties score differently, so I'm just assuming there's substantial Normal/Maniac/Ultra/Min/Max differences.
Futari BL Original is amazing, and I'd be perfectly happy seeing a remix of the first Mushi with BL scoring and tons of different difficulty modes, but I'd be surprised if there wasn't more to it than that.
Check around this thread:
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=36751&start=210
For posts by sven666 and genevois. One thing I've noticed out of "natural" playing is that you naturally score highest with wide shot and the 1CCs are easiest with the medium shot.
For those curious about top scores for the game, ABI says (http://abi123.blog110.fc2.com/blog-entry-350.html) his currrent best in Original MAX is 1.24 billion. He ended with just one life and one bomb. His end bonus was 30 or 40 million. On a previous credit he ended with 2 lives and no bombs, and he got just 10 mil per life end bonus. So there seems to be some bomb x life formula in play once again, as we saw in Futari BL.
Really like the write-up, Muchi Muchi Spork...
But come on, grow a pair and do some point-blanking :P
Thanks for the write up and vids Spork! I enjoyed watching your replays. Turns out the music isn't as butchered as I originally expected it to be, but I still prefer the original version. I'm wondering if the TLB is reachable outside of Ultra, any clue?
I have a pair but I like to get comfortable with games before jumping into scoring systems. It makes it almost like getting 2 new games. And I am used to playing the original Mushi where the scoring system did not appeal to me in the slightest so that carried over.
I don't know anything about the TLB situation here yet.
There is some Cave week going on on Spong posted about here:
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=39344
Doesn't have anything about arcade news so, not that appealing to me but some people here will enjoy it.
Quote from: Muchi Muchi Spork on December 06, 2011, 07:35:58 PM
There is some Cave week going on on Spong posted about here:
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=39344
Doesn't have anything about arcade news so, not that appealing to me but some people here will enjoy it.
All they ever talk about with most Western interviewers is their iOS stuff. Makes sense from a business/market viewpoint, but it's not of utmost interest to most of us.
There's an interesting one now:
http://spong.com/feature/10110561/Interview-Akai-Katana-Hiroyuki-Kimura-Hideki-Nomura
By the way, this game runs on the CV1000-B board. It's incorrectly labeled as SH3b on the arcade game list page. And Akai Katana is modified CV1000-D fwiw. A couple of ram chips are different from DFK etc. And there is a medal game from 2007/06/05 called Medal Mahjong Moukari Bancho that ran on SH3. The board looked like Mushihimesama with the serial port connector installed. I saw it on Yahoo Japan once.
I saw these scores today at Hey:
(http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/5774/img0473qu.jpg)
(http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/5613/img0470xs.jpg)
:facepalm:
Ah, stage 3 scoring exploit, perhaps? Sorta kills my interest in the game, but at least you can still play Original!
Oh, dear.
Dammit, Cave :\
Tweaked and fixed 360 port? ;)
Quote from: EOJ on January 06, 2012, 08:59:41 AM
Ah, stage 3 scoring exploit, perhaps?
Yeah, that's probably it. Like I said at shmups, the scores at the arcade I played this at were nowhere near that big. Original MAX is awesome BTW.
Quote from: EOJ on January 06, 2012, 08:59:41 AM
Ah, stage 3 scoring exploit, perhaps?
Can you expand on this exploit a bit please ?
Quote from: rtw on January 06, 2012, 01:03:17 PM
Quote from: EOJ on January 06, 2012, 08:59:41 AM
Ah, stage 3 scoring exploit, perhaps?
Can you expand on this exploit a bit please ?
seconded, would really appreciate a nico link or at least a description.
I think EOJ was just speculating. Might be wrong though in which case I'd like to know too.
Just speculation. There's no videos of the counterstop (yet, as far as I know).
Quote from: rtw on January 06, 2012, 01:03:17 PMCan you expand on this exploit a bit please ?
If I understand correctly, EOJ is talking about the way stage 3 in Mushi 1.0 was exploited for huge scores. The scoring systems in Maniac and Ultra allowed skyrocketing per-stage multipliers on certain large enemies?mostly midbosses, and stage 3 is basically one huge midboss. I guess if you combine that with proximity mechanics, you can get billions on the spot.
Well, there's obviously some trick in stage 3 if the counterstop runs ended at stage 3. The major score source could also be in stage 2 (from the added seed pods maybe) and the score just gets topped off in stage 3.
Also, if its possible to get those scores in Maniac regular, I would imagine its possible in MAX. The Original modes both seem viable for scoring still, but we'll see I guess.