A translation of an interview with Shinobu Yagawa about DDP Daifukkatsu BL

[EOJ]

Here is a pretty long, four-page interview that I translated. The interview mainly deals with DFK BL, but many other topics are touched upon.

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A translation of an interview with Shinobu Yagawa about Dodonpachi Daifukkatsu Black Label

Translated from the original Japanese version recently published in Cave's DDPDFK artbook. Please note that all things in parentheses were added by me (the translator) to clarify certain things. Things in brackets are in parentheses in the original text (such as [laughs]). YGW=Yagawa.

Q: First, I'd like to touch upon the previous game Dodonpachi Daifukkatsu, which you never played, right?
YGW: That's right.

Q: Now, I'm wondering if you could tell us about the series of events that led to you being in charge of developing the Black Label version of Dodonpachi Daifukkatsu.
YGW: I don't know the detailed series of events,  but because Dodonpachi games are always developed by the same team, I think I remember something about them saying it would be nice to try and change things up a bit. [laughs] 

Q: I'm thinking that doing an Arrange like this  is pretty rare for you. Have you done any Arrange modes before?
YGW: Well, there's Espgaluda II's Arrange mode on the X360. 

Q: This time, did you have any worries about doing a "Black Label" arrange?
YGW: Yeah. In the beginning, I was just thinking about would be good to do. There are various limitations, and so I was thinking of what I could do within them.

Q: When you say "limitations", is this in reference to the atmosphere of the game?
YGW: That wasn't pointed out in particular, but I thought it natural that I should leave it as is. Mainly, outside of that, there were limitations on the development time I could use, along with the cost, personnel resources, as well as  the technical parts (in the game) that I could change. So I made the game with these things in mind.

Q: I wonder, what is the actual development time? I asked Ikeda-san about past  Black Labels, and he gave me the answer of  "I made them as if they were for an after-school club" (referring to the fact he had other things to work on during the day).
YGW: This Black Label wasn't made with such a feeling as I was only making this (one game). As for the development time, I don't remember exactly, but it was somewhere between two months and three and a half months.

Q: This came out during our talk about limitations just a bit earlier, but for this game, being part of a series, I think a Dodonpachi feel would have been desired. For you, what points are the real essence of Dodonpachi?
YGW: Hmm...well, honestly, while thinking about it deeply, there's no real reason for me to have been doing this game. [laughs]. I didn't make any big changes in this game. If I have to toss something out there (in regard to the essence of Dodonpachi), in particular it would be the "get point system" and the mecha world. Also, one's ship having both a laser attack and a shot attack. 

Q: Within the company, were there any demands for particular things to be added to the Black Label version?
YGW: As a great presupposition, it was decided to add an Autobomb "On/Off" option. Other than that, there were no particular demands.

Q: So basically, it feels like they just left it up to you, right?
YGW: Yeah, that's right. Though when I make something that's no good, the same thing is said at that time too. [laughs] Of course, there are detailed amendments in the game, but there aren't any substantial amendments. It hasn't been changed so greatly.

Q: Conversely, were there any things that made you think "I will absolutely change this!"?
YGW: Honestly, before I embarked on this work I watched the Daifukkatsu superplay DVD often, but when I saw (the players) get on a hyper, I thought it was uninteresting. So I wanted to change that.

Q: When one's pattern becomes polished, the strategy is nothing more than that, and such things are pretty common.
YGW: As would be expected, there was opposition to removing the hypers, so I made them weaker. Another thing that bothered me and that I wanted to change was how enemy bullets canceled by hypers would add to your hit count.

Q: So you thought this made scoring boring?
YGW: Whether it's interesting or boring, that's up to the individual. Honestly for me, while I basically have never played Daifukkatsu (1.5), I thought, from a sensory impression, this was "different."

Q: From hypers adding to the hit count, you aimed to change  that to something else, right?
YWG: A thing like "cancel bullets with a hyper" was not my preference. There are many specific reasons for this. One that particularly bothered me was how the midbosses had many bullet patterns programmed in, but when I went to an arcade I'd never see most of them. So I wanted to show more of these patterns to people. Another point is I wanted to attach a greater importance on dodging bullets. Other than that, another thing that was changed was the removal of the second loop. This was from the perspective of (people who said things like) "I want to play the second loop, but it's annoying to get there" or  "I want to fight Hibachi, but the second loop is annoying." At first, I made the game with a second loop, but then I heard the aforementioned things, and  I talked with Ikeda-san about it and changed it.

Q: We can say the special feature added to this Black Label version is the "Reddo mode". How did this come to be?
YGW: It started from my desire to make a system with bullets that would increase in number, and this was the result. I thought that whatever the level, the gauge would be shown. I don't remember very well, but I have a recollection of making it while talking about it with Ikeda-san. From there, after trying to put together a system where the bullets would increase two or three times the amount compared to the original game, I then starting thinking about how I could implement this into the game.

Q: I'm concerned about what circumstances were involved with the level of trial and error. "Creating is revising" — could you say that about the trial and error involved?
YGW: There weren't any really broad changes, and the things added in the middle of programming were nearly all just put in there. Little things were added, and they became the present game.

Q: Where was the idea for creating two to three times the bullets originally born?
YGW: It was one of the proposals involving numbers. I don't remember which level it went up to, but I remember showing the gauge system to Ikeda-san, and talking with him about it.

Q: In this game the effects of the gauge are pretty amazing. Like the belt of rotating lasers in stage 5.
YGW:  More or less, during debug (where the sprite-over limit is shown), I tuned the game to not have any sprites disappear. But when a skilled player plays the game, some things disappear after all. [bitter laugh]

Q: So that was the result of you pushing the PCB hardware to its limits?
YGW: Yes, I think so...in the beginning I didn't have a reason to program some things with my system, but I added in various ideas to prevent the sprites from disappearing. When I watched the (Black Label) superplay DVD, I saw it became something pretty amazing. [laughs]

Q: In this game, beyond the system itself, the scoring items have become pretty amazing. I'm assuming this is something you aimed to do?
YGW: Huh? Are you talking about sprites disappearing again? [laughs]

Q: Uh, no, I was referring to the increased volume of scoring items. [laughs]
YGW: As I changed conditions in which items appear, I had to make items (produced) from the enemy bullets just the same as the other items. Since the enemy bullets from Ver 1.5 increased, this is what resulted.

Q: Since the star (items) are large now, I feel that it gives a splendid appearance to the game. Other than that, more than any previous Black Label released, I think this one is the easiest to see the differences from the previous game just by its appearance.
YGW: While it would be no good to not have any changes from the previous game, in regard to development, I had reached my limit. Then I thought, well, what should I do now? At that point, I tried out an idea I had at the very beginning of development, which was to combine the shot and laser into one attack. When I tried to do different things within the limitations of the hardware, I could only think of that. First of all, rather than having a different animation or added graphics, just by looking at what happens when you hold shot and laser together at the same time, I think the impact of it is made clear.

Q: Did the other staff members point out that you went too far with this?
YGW: That never happened.

Q: I'd like to ask about your view of shooting games in general, but as it came out during our talk about hypers, do you have a stance where you want to make players dodge bullets?
YGW: It's not especially that, but riding a hyper involves too little risk, and as anyone who uses it has the same result, it is not to my liking. I never really thought about "wanting to make people dodge bullets", but I think (DFK 1.5) hypers are probably a bit excessive.

Q: So you're saying you don't want people to play games in a work-like fashion too much?
YGW: As "work", you say...hmmm. I think there are people who find that to be fun, but it's not to my liking. If this were me from 5 years ago, I probably would think differently. Every year that passes, my thinking changes. It's starting to become increasingly tepid. [laughs]

Q: When you say "tepid", are you referring to the aesthetics of game design? Or simply difficulty level?
YGW: Difficulty level, of course. Compared to years ago, it has gradually decreased. These days it's easy to have people say "this game is so difficult, it's impossible!" right off the bat. Games I used to play and find to be fun years ago — some of them aren't so fun when I play them today. For example, I used to feel that games strong in pattern memorization were fun, but now I don't really feel the same way. For pattern-memorization games, once you memorize a good pattern through a level, even poorly skilled players can progress through the game. Because of this, I used to really enjoy such games, but these days, I can't enjoy them at all.

Q: Are there any games you find to be interesting nowadays? I've heard you don't really own any home consoles, but what kind of games do you normally play? Do you play anything on the PC?
YGW: I don't play anything on the PC. I play a lot in the arcades. When I started this work I owned some home consoles, but as the only shooters released were ports of arcade games, I didn't buy (most of) them. That is to say, I played the games that were called degraded ports that were on a different level compared to the arcade versions, due to the  hardware specs. But now that ports have become pretty much identical to the arcade versions, I don't buy any of them. 

Q: Well, based on the hardware, the arrange modes that come included in the ports can be quite enjoyable even though some voice complaints about them.
YGW: If it's exactly the same game, it's better to play it in an arcade.

Q: The Cave shooters from many years have had complete ports, and as different, added content has been demanded, development must be pretty tough.
Q: Our talk swings back and forth, but I would like to ask about your impression of the Dodonpachi series. What did you think when you saw the first Dodonpachi?
YGW: At that time, I was working at a different company, but I clearly remember my first impression of Dodonpachi. I thought "it's nice that so many bullets are coming out!" [laughs]. Because, you know, the hardware capabilities were different. The hardware I was developing on couldn't produce so many bullets, so that's why I said "it's nice". I was jealous.

Q: "If it were up to me, I'd do it like this" — were there any things (in Dodonpachi) like that for you?
YGW: Nothing really. For the things that come out once in this world, I don't think about what it would be like to try and add anything to them myself.

Q: What was it like playing it (Dodonpachi) for the first time?
YGW: One thing I found disappointing was that the second loop wasn't open from the start. Due to that, I stopped playing it once I cleared the first loop. At that time, people lined up to play Dodonpachi, and if you didn't line up you couldn't play it. At the arcade I frequented, there was a Shienryuu cabinet right next to the Dodonpachi machine, so I played that a lot instead. When you clear the first loop of Shienryuu, you automatically go to the second loop, with no special condition to meet. [laughs]

Q: At that time, there wasn't an internet (community), so information about how to get to the second loop was hard to come by, wasn't it. Like "Zatsuza", which Ikeda-san added to Daifukkatsu Black Label, it remained something shrouded in mystery.
YGW:  Actually, I am the person who programmed the condition to meet Zatsuza. The idea for the condition was Ikeda-san's, but I am the one who actually made the program. So, for awhile after the game came out, because we weren't getting any eyewitness accounts of people reaching Zatsuza, I was worried there was some bug preventing people (from reaching Zatsuza). [laughs]

Q: Until the superplay DVD was released, (Zatsuza's) existence was doubted by a lot of people.
YGW: Not even one video of Zatsuza had yet appeared on the online video sites, so I was really in a state of anxiety. For people who didn't know of its existence, (when they found out) they probably just said something like "Oh, I see. So there was something like that in there after all." But I'm the one who actually programmed it. [laughs] So I was really uneasy about it.

Q: There were rumors about a secret boss appearing, but it was treated on the same level of an urban legend. Since the rumor existed, I'd think someone must have reached the boss before...
YGW: When making the soundtrack, there was a Hibachi arrange track (referencing Zatsuza), and there were people who thought that was suspicious.

Q: With that said, at the end of 2010 there was a Cave Festival made to show both the appearance and destruction of Zatsuza. Unfortunately at this event, he (Zatsuza) didn't appear in the player's run, but we did see a very impressive no miss performance on Hibachi. In shooting games, there is a big difference in skill among players, so I think it would be hard to balance a game. What level of player do you use as your benchmark?
YGW: The benchmark for game balance is simple. It is myself. [laughs] This (Black Label) situation is different, but I won't make a game I can't clear. In the arcades, we have to catch both the top players and the less skilled players, and it's difficult.
Basically, it's not that there isn't a way to implement a difficulty select system, but...with this game, bomb, power and strong styles function naturally as different difficulty selections, though in the beginning I didn't want to put in any difficulty select system. I wanted to make the game accessible to both beginners and pros, without a difficulty select system.

Q: It's pretty interesting that you use yourself as the means to adjust game balance.
YGW: Naturally, when I see others playing the game, it's not that I do absolutely nothing. Only, even if it is said that "I'd like you to do this in this way", I leave it as is and don't ask about such things. By and large, there are many matters that are not referred to in the opinions that come from such places. Due to this, I observe such opinions when they come out, I decide myself (if any are worthwhile), then I implement changes.

Q: If you ask for opinions, it's easy for negative things to come out, isn't it.
YGW: It's a talk about where to add things, and where to throw things away. In regard to this Black Label, I wasn't really concerned with the detailed tuning of the game's difficulty, as Ikeda-san mainly did that. Of course, I tinkered with the enemy hit points and whatnot, though.

Q: What is an example of something you fine-tuned in the game?
YGW:  The set of lasers at the start of stage 5. In Ver 1.5, you couldn't destroy them with the normal attacks, they could only be destroyed if a hyper was used. This was something I really hated, so I purposely changed them to be destroyed easily.

Q: If you don't have technical knowledge, you'll absolutely die there.
YGW: More than a stage which requires a lot of planning, I really hate when enemies are not destroyed even if I keep hitting them over and over.

Q: So we can think of you as someone who has placed an emphasis on the satisfying feel of destruction?
YGW: Yes, I think so.

Q: Upon deciding to add Zatsuza to the game, I believe you consulted with Ikeda-san. How did that exchange go?
YGW: There wasn't much of a discussion. I said I'd put in something that Ikeda-san made, so it was put in. When I actually saw it running, I asked "Can we really put something like this in the game?" more than once. [laughs] As expected, I thought about what to do with attacking the large lasers. [laughs]

Q: It seems Ikeda-san thought "Maybe he went too far" with the number of bullets in the spinning laser part in stage 5.
YGW: Really? I wonder if ever he said such a thing. Ah, well, when I was programming the game I actually had more bullets in that part, and they were moving at a faster speed.

Q: Did any other members of the development team point out something in the game they thought was too extreme?
YGW: In the beginning when I made the system with two to three times the bullets, people wondered about that. Also, in the early stages of making the game, the speed of the ship when holding both shot and laser was much slower than in the final version. I made it with the intention to be a military battery, to match the image I had in my head, but people said it moved too slowly. In the final version, with shot+laser the ship moves at basically the same speed as just holding laser by itself. As my image was an image of a battery, I had a feeling akin to "it does not mean that it cannot move".

Q: When it's said like that, the image of what you had in mind really becomes clear.
YGW: If you set your feet down in place and fire, having a lot of bullets come out isn't strange.

Q: I'd like to try that version of the game!  It seems like you wouldn't be able to dodge bullets much anymore, though. [laughs]
YGW: You can move slowly, and because precise bullet dodging is easy to do, it's probably not too hard in the boss fights. In the stages, however, using shot+laser simultaneously would probably be pretty harsh in that version.

Q: In regard to the future of the Dodonpachi series, or other Cave shooting games, are there any things you wish to do?
YGW: Hmm...there's nothing really. [laughs] I'm in trouble now! [laughs]

Q: Are there any games you'd like to make other than shooting games?
YGW: I'm not so obsessed with shooting games. Years ago I really liked action games, so if I were to make a new game, I think that would be nice.

Q: What are some of the action games that you currently like, or liked in the past?
YGW: When I think about Samurai Spirits now, I realize I really played that an unbelievable amount of time. I played it every day until the arcade closed. The reason I was so immersed in the game was that the guys I competed against in the arcades back then were really a lot of fun. Other than competing against them, I'd also argue with them about various trifling things, but since there were so many little gimmicks in Samurai Spirits, such a thing was easy to do.
Other than that, Darius Gaiden is another game I played a lot. It was really fun as a shooter, the graphics and setting were really beautiful, and there were lots of routes. It was just a really fun game. At that time there weren't any rapid fire circuits in the cabinets, so I had to do all the rapid fire stuff with my fingers. [laughs]

Q: You seem to be really fixated on the graphics and the setting of a game. Do you ever voice some requests to the designer of a game you're working on?
YGW: With this game (DFK Black Label), I had no reason to be concerned with the setting, I wasn't saying things like "I think you should do this to this graphic" or whatever. (In general) I'll just say things like "I think you should put (an enemy) battery here", for a staging effect.

Q: Among all the games you've been a part of up until now, which ones are influenced by a world view?
YGW: Summer Carnival '92 Recca,  Battle Garegga, and Battle Bakraid are influenced by a level of real world construction.

Q: In the future, do you want to try to create more games in such a setting?
YGW: When I try to make a shooting game, it becomes full of reciprocating engines.... so, with that in mind, I suppose I've been creating them for quite some time. Other than that, there isn't much else I've thought about. When I start making a game, I think about whether or not it will be received by the players, and if it's a realistic style,  it won't be accepted unless there are reciprocating engines. Personally, I like sci-fi, so it's pretty difficult.

Q:  Lastly, is there anything you'd like to say to the people who have been playing Dodonpachi Daifukkatsu?
YGW: That's difficult. Are other people being interviewed for this saying anything? [laughs] Hmm...nothing in particular. [we all laugh]
Well, maybe "Please put money into recent games, not just older games!". Though that could be said to me too. [laughs]

[hipgnosis]

Thank you for the translation! That was an interesting read. Yagawa is a hero.

[lam47]

Superb job. Thanks EOJ.

[ohfivepro]

Great read. Thanks!

[dan76]

Good interview - nice one EOJ.

Yagawa really is the man, for me everything he altered in DFK was for the better.

[emphatic]

Splendid work, a pleasure to read!  I love the part where he "hates" not being able to destroy stuff. 

[Shalashaska]

Really good read, thanks EOJ. I like his attitude towards bullet canceling and I thought the part about his anxiety that he fucked up Zatsuza was funny.

[Icarus]

Thanks for the translation. Always good stuff reading his views and comments.
Shame he's not cooking up more Raizing-styled games at the moment, but whatever he does is usually good fun.

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

Thanks for the translation.

[skykid]

Good interview, thanks for putting in the work to translate it. 

Yagawa is pretty dry in his interviews - he doesn't let much on - but I did like the fact that he was candid about using himself as a bench test for a game's difficulty. That means he can clear Ibara and Pink Sweets, the sadistic git.

Interestingly, he noted several things he dislikes about vanilla 1.5 that I can identify with. I really think BL is absolutely terrific though, he did a great job.

[EOJ]

That means he can clear Ibara and Pink Sweets, the sadistic git.

Yep. I get the feeling he's not much of a scorer. He really seems to enjoy just 1CCing games.

The most interesting parts of the interview for me were (in no particular order):

1)His original version of the shot+laser attack in DFK BL. It sounds really cool to have the ship move super slowly when holding both buttons, it would give it more of a sense of power, and could be used mainly for the bosses. I'd guess it moved similar to the speed of Lace (from Pink Sweets) at her slowest speed setting.

2)He complains about DDP's loop condition not being open from the start, but he also made MMP with its unfriendly loop condition.   Seems contradictory, though I have a suspicion MMP's loop condition was either programmed by Ikeda, or not his idea.

3)He professes his love for action games, and says he'd like to make one soon. Could he be the one making Nin-Nin Jump? If so, we're in for a treat.

[Tain]

3)He professes his love for action games, and says he'd like to make one soon. Could he be the one making Nin-Nin Jump? If so, we're in for a treat.

That would be so great. I'm not very interested in the game at the moment, but that would change things.

[zlk]

Cool translation Dr. EOJ. 

[brentsg]

Yep. I get the feeling he's not much of a scorer. He really seems to enjoy just 1CCing games.

2)He complains about DDP's loop condition not being open from the start, but he also made MMP with its unfriendly loop condition.   Seems contradictory, though I have a suspicion MMP's loop condition was either programmed by Ikeda, or not his idea.

Regarding the scoring, keep in mind that he's doing this so early.  Something I haven't seen addressed in any interviews is scoring potential.  In any given game, I wonder what % of top-end scoring is intended potential and what % is unintended.  You program in a certain amount of intentional headroom, but then amazing players are able to identify loopholes or exploits that were really not intended by the developers.  I'm sure they have to do what they can, then the game has to either stand the test of time.. fizzle out early.. or they do a developer  and 1.5 it to add a couple of zero's.

On the loop, he basically said that he's mellowed over time also.  It could be that he felt MMP was a pretty easy clear so there needed to be some carrot.  But I agree the conditions for the loop are difficult.  I also wondered if he was taking a direct shot at the earlier 'Pachi games when he ripped on the memorization aspect of certain shooting games.

[supabok]

Great job translating the interview EOJ!!Interesting read and insight!!

[MikeNeko]

some interesting things indeed thank you EOJ

[Kewing]

Impressive job EOJ, that was a really interesting read. He sure feels like a rather honest looking guy.

[hermosaguy]

Great read! Thank you for taking the time to translate and share this!

[Polyfreeze]

Thanks for this translation, EOJ.

[GaijinPunch]

When is the Insomniac version coming up?

[SH4R4KU]

Really interesting read. Thanks for the translation!

[zak]

Do you still have this translation @EOJ?

[EOJ]

Do you still have this translation @EOJ?

Took a bit of searching around on an old hdd, but I found it and pasted it into the first post of this thread.